Tigger73's 125TSI Tiguan Build Thread

[Transporter]

Unfortunately I'd say that's not necessarily the case.

We've had cars putting out less or more power with our own different R&D tunes during development say, on a Golf R, and Quarter mile times can be quite different regardless of whether power is up or down over another tune on the dyno - there are a million and one other factors to consider.

Look what happened when we first launched our old Golf R Motorsport files - the very first generation was killing the quarter mile, yet we never professed to have the most top end on a dyno. (Not necessarily saying that is happening here - because there's not enough information available to comment, but food for thought)

Dyno's too are a tuning tool - and can be an indication of performance only - the drag strip will always tell us tuners more about performance of a car during development. But as Tigger73 said - he's essentially taking a holistic approach for a personal view on his tunes including some scientific (or as close to) and some personal perception, experiences and thoughts, which is far more important. Personal opinion is always subjective, but always good to know.

In addition the only way to keep it scientific on a dyno is tune the car, run it, retune the car without touching it, don't touch the bed, don't touch the straps and allow it to cool sufficiently. Conditions play a part of course, ambient temps do too, but far more important than even that is the dyno, set up, and operator - I'm yet to see a dyno Centre locally with a wind tunnel dyno - ie one that can replicate true airflow at WOT in 4th for a full run.

It will again, however, be an indication as to whether it's putting out those potentially lost KW as we hope it is for Tiggy73's sake. But there are a lot of factors meaning we can see different dyno run reports on the same car each time we strap it on. Stock, or tuned. In that regard, I'd say 0-100 and 1/4 miles are often a more important indication and far more reliable in data gathering.

In my climate up in North QLD we see temps in the low teens on the Table Lands, but also anything up to high 30's with 100% humidity this time of year so we test and do development in all manner of conditions. I find real world testing is more useful than the dyno centre.

I don't know, but for sure if the dyno sheet would say that the Viezu tune gave him less 10kW-15kW than the APR, then he should be able to feel it. And if there would be such a big difference I don't need the dyno to confirm that, especially if that would be my car I drive every day.

Put it simply; he must know now which tune is better and faster. Hell, for sure you'd know if you drive Tiguan 118TSI or 132TSI.

[Ramee]

I don't know, but for sure if the dyno sheet would say that the Viezu tune gave him less 10kW-15kW than the APR, then he should be able to feel it. And if there would be such a big difference I don't need the dyno to confirm that, especially if that would be my car I drive every day.

Put it simply; he must know now which tune is better and faster. Hell, for sure you'd know if you drive Tiguan 118TSI or 132TSI.

Yeah! Dyno plots may be inaccurate (if there is any variation it is just an offset and shape of the curve is more important) but it gives very valuable clues never the less for car's engine performance behaviour. Just have a look at tigger73's Dyno plots. First run on September this year, very clearly explains the hesitation he was feeling between 2000- 3000 rpm. Torque is going down and power almost flat due to that regardless of engine rpm increase, clearly indicating a tuning issue.( I am surprised he was managed to live with that and not so surprised he was rushed to get the DSG tune from HP

The run in November looks good but seams to be a conservative tune and I feel he can reap few more KW in top to mid range from his engine with current set-up. May be tigger needs a Hi flow intake like a Carbonio to improve his top end.

[Transporter]

First run on September this year, very clearly explains the hesitation he was feeling between 2000- 3000 rpm. Torque is going down and power almost flat due to that regardless of engine rpm increase, clearly indicating a tuning issue. ( I am surprised he was managed to live with that and not so surprised he was rushed to get the DSG tune from HP

I totally agree, it wasn't handled very well and I don't like it either. Sometimes I wish he didn't go to Victoria for his tune, so I feel guilty little bit that I couldn't do his Tig, because I would deal with the issue completely differently. I'm sure Viezu Australia will learn from the mistake. Believe me or not, it cost me quite a lot of tunning jobs despite I haven't touch Tiggers73 car, and I was telling him right from the start to go with the APR. His not very well tuned Tiguan had a huge impact on the Viezu brand name in SA because the VWWatercooled community is now more active than ever before. I can assure you that any VAG cars tuned by me would get the full refund if the tune wouldn't perform as it should regardless of the brand and the policy the brand has.

I have spent in business much more money to buy an equipment on a single job just to make a customer happy than what the cost of the tune is. But the bench tuning always carries a risk, that is way to great and the mishaps do happen, that's for sure.

[tigger73]

Yeah! Dyno plots may be inaccurate (if there is any variation it is just an offset and shape of the curve is more important) but it gives very valuable clues never the less for car's engine performance behaviour. Just have a look at tigger73's Dyno plots. First run on September this year, very clearly explains the hesitation he was feeling between 2000- 3000 rpm. Torque is going down and power almost flat due to that regardless of engine rpm increase, clearly indicating a tuning issue.( I am surprised he was managed to live with that and not so surprised he was rushed to get the DSG tune from HP

The run in November looks good but seams to be a conservative tune and I feel he can reap few more KW in top to mid range from his engine with current set-up. May be tigger needs a Hi flow intake like a Carbonio to improve his top end.

Which is the reason I'm using a combination of testing - dyno, 0-100, logs, on road feel as measures. We knew there was an issue with the first tune file from on-road driving and logs and the dyno backed this up very graphically.

I didn't post anything in the forums about my issues as I was working with Viezu to get this sorted which they did. It did take longer in my case due to my location and costs/challenges with retuning my car (do it once and do it right). There were also challenges to pull in specific vehicles that exhibit the issue as it was only observable in particular coding variants.

DSG tune was a separate issue and I would recommend this to anyone with a DSG transmission. It greatly improves the drivability of the car. The transmission is now in the "right" gear almost all the time, dropping down a couple of gears when you put your boot in and even makes S mode drive able around the city. Plus dropping back into first gear at low speeds which is much safer for accelerating at roundabouts and intersections.

And yes I did think that they had backed the tune file off to get it to "behave" which is part of the reason I decided to make the switch. It did feel less urgent in the mid-range which is where you need it when overtaking.



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[Transporter]

Which is the reason I'm using a combination of testing - dyno, 0-100, logs, on road feel as measures. We knew there was an issue with the first tune file from on-road driving and logs and the dyno backed this up very graphically.

I didn't post anything in the forums about my issues as I was working with Viezu to get this sorted which they did. It did take longer in my case due to my location and costs/challenges with retuning my car (do it once and do it right). There were also challenges to pull in specific vehicles that exhibit the issue as it was only observable in particular coding variants.

DSG tune was a separate issue and I would recommend this to anyone with a DSG transmission. It greatly improves the drivability of the car. The transmission is now in the "right" gear almost all the time, dropping down a couple of gears when you put your boot in and even makes S mode drive able around the city. Plus dropping back into first gear at low speeds which is much safer for accelerating at roundabouts and intersections.

And yes I did think that they had backed the tune file off to get it to "behave" which is part of the reason I decided to make the switch. It did feel less urgent in the mid-range which is where you need it when overtaking.



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So, is the APR tune working as it should, is everything OK? Are you 100% happy now?
I only ask because all these posting is giving me impression that there is not.

[tigger73]

So, is the APR tune working as it should, is everything OK? Are you 100% happy now?
I only ask because all these posting is giving me impression that there is not.

Transporter, I beleivethe APR tune is operating as it should. I'm still not convinced I'm getting the power/torque/performance that others claim is possible out of the same level of mods from my car.

Once I have the APR on the dyno I will know more but I suspect this will not be a major change from the Viezu file.

Some initial first impressions from driving the APR file isthat it is nice and smooth and throttle response seems like I don't have to give it as much beans to get up to speed so it's easier to drive in traffic. The Viezu tune is more pronounced on/off so you need to work the throttle harder to get the car to get moving. I will see how the car adapts over the next week or so but I am happy that the tune is doing the right thing. It also takes out a big question for me as to whether the lower outputs I'm seeing are tune related or not.

[tigger73]

I totally agree, it wasn't handled very well and I don't like it either. Sometimes I wish he didn't go to Victoria for his tune, so I feel guilty little bit that I couldn't do his Tig, because I would deal with the issue completely differently. I'm sure Viezu Australia will learn from the mistake. Believe me or not, it cost me quite a lot of tunning jobs despite I haven't touch Tiggers73 car, and I was telling him right from the start to go with the APR. His not very well tuned Tiguan had a huge impact on the Viezu brand name in SA because the VWWatercooled community is now more active than ever before. I can assure you that any VAG cars tuned by me would get the full refund if the tune wouldn't perform as it should regardless of the brand and the policy the brand has.

I have spent in business much more money to buy an equipment on a single job just to make a customer happy than what the cost of the tune is. But the bench tuning always carries a risk, that is way to great and the mishaps do happen, that's for sure.

The challenge all along, and I said this up front, is that there were at the time no off-the-shelf options for exhaust systems for the Tiguan.

If you put a stage 1 tune on your car and then want to take it to the next level you're stuck - unless you go down the custom exhaust route. Although this would be doable it really doesn't benefit anyone else to go with a custom set-up which nobody else can replicate... and then there's no guarantees it's going to work with your tune file etc, etc. So easiest route is to go with a tuner who manufactures or designs their tune to work with a known hardware. This is why tuners sell their own brand of hardware then you're pretty much guaranteed to get a result. Or if there is an issue you don't get finger pointing.

Unfortunately the hardware manufacturing was not in either mine or Simon's control and we were to a large extent at the mercy of a large exhaust manufacturer to find time to build a boutique exhaust system. The development of this sytem did take a lot longer than first expected. I was in a difficult position in that I wanted/needed for the hardware development to be completed before I was in a position to make any other changes.

Yes and now I totally understand why people say to go local with tuning and I'm a good example of why you want to do it. In fact Simon was reluctant to take me on for the hardware development and it was only my perstering him that he agreed. So I do take a large part of the blame here.

I could have pulled the pin earlier but then I would have been back to square 1 in terms of hardware - hence the reason that I stuck it out.

[Transporter]

Transporter, I beleivethe APR tune is operating as it should. I'm still not convinced I'm getting the power/torque/performance that others claim is possible out of the same level of mods from my car.

Once I have the APR on the dyno I will know more but I suspect this will not be a major change from the Viezu file.

Some initial first impressions from driving the APR file isthat it is nice and smooth and throttle response seems like I don't have to give it as much beans to get up to speed so it's easier to drive in traffic. The Viezu tune is more pronounced on/off so you need to work the throttle harder to get the car to get moving. I will see how the car adapts over the next week or so but I am happy that the tune is doing the right thing. It also takes out a big question for me as to whether the lower outputs I'm seeing are tune related or not.

So, not much different to the last Viezu tune you had?

[tigger73]

So, not much different to the last Viezu tune you had?

Not greatly - other than the APR tune having more power/torque at mid-throttle. Also going on/off the gas feels smoother with APR but again will see how the tune/ECU adapts and again this is subjective.

I did a 0-100 run the other day and performance from the APR tune was similar.

So unfortunately it looks like both files are putting out similar power/torque on my car - but will get this tested and confirmed on Wednesday.

The hard thing with Viezu tune is that I didn't have much to benchmark against so if I thought I wasn't getting the numbers I didn't know if this was tune related or to look elsewhere.

I have had the diverter valve changed out a while back but it didn't make any difference (though this was on the misbehaving tune).

Sounds like either:

1) 125TSI can't be tuned up to the same level as 147/155 (?)
2) I'm actually getting the maximum power/torque from my car
3) Some other issue resulting in loss of power

But will know more for sure in a couple of days.

[Ramee]

Tigger, can you log what boost you are running at. Using VCDS, you should be able to plot requested boost against actual boost. I have a slight suspicion that 125 turbo may not be same as 155. You know different K04s are there so may be different K03 as well...