Tigger73's 125TSI Tiguan Build Thread

[ViezuAustralia]

Whilst I agree this is not the place for it, unfortunately your post does nothing to make me feel more comfortable. Far from it. In fact if you read it carefully, my post addresses the extensive development APR puts into each and every tune (as a confirmation to tiggy73 that he is on the right path IMO going forward) and not any perceived lack thereof on your part.

Excellent thanks for clearing that up Sharkie. I wouldn't want anyone reading this to think what I thought your post meant. And Tiggy73 and I too think this is the best path for him on his particular car. I'm the first to tell people if we have the best tune for a given vehicle. I am too the first to tell people if we don't. Simple fact is, as it stands, I suspect we are not putting out as much power as APR on the 125tsi variant - and Tiggy73 was after that from his car.
It's not an issue - any tuner would be an idiot to think they have the most power out of every single model they cover (and also have in mind some tuners do not develop tunes to give the best outright power). Some people of course don't want the dyno day champ - there are many other reasons why people chose different tuners.
I'm happy with the new ranges of tunes on the Tiguans - especially the 147 and 155, but if the 125tsi is not putting out more performance then clearly our 125tsi can have more work done. I have data from competitor tunes on my dyno back to back and know the higher output variants are competitive. I haven't back to backed a 125tsi though so I'm waiting on Tiggy73 to let us know. It will take us time to develop the 125tsi further here if that's the case - and -if- APR can already do it on this variant, Tiggy73 will be happy with his new tune and that's great - whatever the outcome.

Cheers

Simon

[tigger73]

Yeah! I got the race gas 104 oct file and lost the valet mode(no use). But be careful not the put the car into this mode ever with 98 gas! They are pretty close you know 3 blinks & 4 blinks

Yes - will be very careful here. I'll triple check when changing tune modes - particularly with the 98/104 files. I know there's almost no chance my engine will be covered under warranty so it'll be on my own head.... And no, I will not be showing my wife how to change tune modes

Also love to see your Dyno graphs from APR and VEZU both so we can actually compare

I will be getting the APR file dyno'd this week. I am interested in this comparison too, however given a 0-100 run on the freeway earlier today it may be a lot closer than a lot of people may think.

This is part of the reason that I am doing this testing and going to publish my findings, as there is very little back to back testing on identical hardware. This is almost impossible to do, however I'm looking to do this with as small a number of variables as possible. Same dyno, same car, similar weather/temp conditions with different tune files.

Anyway I don't think Vezuaustralia actually understand how APR create their tunes. If you dig some in to these you will see they actually reverse engineer whole ECUs and operating systems running on them, that is why they can have those fancy features like selectable multiple tune files from cruise control buttons etc. Saying APR somehow converting 125 into 147 before tuning is bit silly I guess !!

I don't think anyone knows how the other brands develop their files unless they have been to their development centre and worked with the file developers/tuners of the organisation. Each tuner has their own approach to file development and what they are looking to achieve. Generally they will all use a mixture of dyno and road testing.

I know APR does a lot of local development and have a lot of cars running their files which is why I have ended up putting this file on. Though I also know that Viezu do a lot of local testing and file development too. I would have to agree that APR have the edge here due to the smaller range of manufacturers/models they tune and the size of organisation so they are able to put the resources/man hours into the tune file R&D work.

Viezu has some very good Mk6 GTI files (amongst others) and the key thing with the 125TSI even though it's the same engine is to get it to "match" the 147 file before applying the same adjustments. This is probably a "gross" simplification on things, however as you can no doubt appreciate there is a difference between the 125 and 147 files. Yes they can both end up at the same place but the starting point is different.

However we're all getting a bit ahead of ourselves and will just have to wait for the dyno results later this week

[tigger73]

Tiggy73 and I too think this is the best path for him on his particular car. I'm the first to tell people if we have the best tune for a given vehicle. I am too the first to tell people if we don't. Simple fact is, as it stands, I suspect we are not putting out as much power as APR on the 125tsi variant - and Tiggy73 was after that from his car.
It's not an issue - any tuner would be an idiot to think they have the most power out of every single model they cover (and also have in mind some tuners do not develop tunes to give the best outright power). Some people of course don't want the dyno day champ - there are many other reasons why people chose different tuners.
I'm happy with the new ranges of tunes on the Tiguans - especially the 147 and 155, but if the 125tsi is not putting out more performance then clearly our 125tsi can have more work done. I have data from competitor tunes on my dyno back to back and know the higher output variants are competitive. I haven't back to backed a 125tsi though so I'm waiting on Tiggy73 to let us know. It will take us time to develop the 125tsi further here if that's the case - and -if- APR can already do it on this variant, Tiggy73 will be happy with his new tune and that's great - whatever the outcome.

Cheers

Simon

I'm still not totally discounting a hardware issue with my car - possible rear section of exhaust causing problems???

However putting on an APR tune file which has fairly well documented performance will tell me whether my slower 0-100 and suspected reduced power/torque outputs are tune or hardware related.

The difficult thing that I have had to work with is the lack of any benchmarks with the Viezu tune as the current files are pretty new and not many Tiguans (other than a couple of 147's) are running these. Other than the recent dyno day in Adelaide and posted/claimed 0-100 times from people running various tunes, I haven't had much else to benchmark my car against to know if I'm getting the expected performance/output.

I suspect my car is missing 15-20kwaw and this is what I'm chasing.

The thing I haven't done and probably in hindsight should/could have is put the car down the 1/4 mile. But then again this won't tell me whether I have a tune/hardware issue or if that's all I'm going to get from the stage 2 file/hardware.

[Ramee]

Hi Tigger, what is your 0 100 value from APR and Vezu, I am sure if you did not launch the car it will not be very good value. Also I heard even though people say 125 , 147, 155 all same engines I heard there are considerable differences in performance when under tune to get same power levels.

[tigger73]

Hi Tigger, what is your 0 100 value from APR and Vezu, I am sure if you did not launch the car it will not be very good value. Also I heard even though people say 125 , 147, 155 all same engines I heard there are considerable differences in performance when under tune to get same power levels.

non-launch 0-100 times have been relatively consistent - around 7.1-7.2sec. I ran a 7.2sec with APR file today on a 30degC day.

I have done a couple of launches with my "old" Viezu file and got 6.2sec which is quite a way from the mid 5's most people with APR tunes are achieving.

125TSI should be tuneable to the same point as 147/155TSI as hardware is identical. However it will depend if the tuners have done the work to develop the 125TSI files to the same point.

Would be interested to hear times from 125/132TSI with APR (both stage 1 and stage 2). Obviously there's also going to be some variation in terms of timing equipment etc that people use also. I've done mine using my autopolar FIS+.

[Ramee]

non-launch 0-100 times have been relatively consistent - around 7.1-7.2sec. I ran a 7.2sec with APR file today on a 30degC day.

I have done a couple of launches with my "old" Viezu file and got 6.2sec which is quite a way from the mid 5's most people with APR tunes .

Actually 6.2 is pretty respectable value for non race map file. And considering 7.2 for both APR and Vezu non launch times they seams to be pretty close to each other in performance level. But I am sure you should achieve better value from APR, could be a hardware issue

[tigger73]

So does anyone know definitively if the APR 147TSI and 125TSI files give the same output?

Otherwise it'll be a call on Monday.

[ViezuAustralia]

I'm still not totally discounting a hardware issue with my car - possible rear section of exhaust causing problems???

Hardware is always a difficult thing to go through - however insofar as the exhaust is concerned - the DP is a slightly tweaked Golf R DP from VARdesign which has great results, and the catback is very close in design terms of the first generation VARdesign catback for the GTi 6 Golfs - which were putting out some savage power in testing, and coupled to the new vTracks are just ridiculously fast - so your exhaust should be doing what it should be doing. What we could do with is some other Tiguans down there - I'm happy to fly down and make it worth their while with pricing just to make it happen. Could do it at a dyno day and live tune it with Technical online or something.

If it turns out to be nothing - normal - We're looking to drop a GTX onto a Tig up here as part of development - maybe you should just jump in feet first and do it I'll come down again for you and tune it and install some other development goodness whilst I'm at it

[MGV]

I was under the impression that all 4 tuned variants of the Tig would achieve the same output, ie 189kW & 400Nm (or a tad more) with a stage 1 APR tuned TSI engine. (Tiguan, also GTI, vRS)

I managed a 7.1 time a few times with my stage 1 (manual) without being too hard on the clutch upon take-off. (measured with torque pro)

[tigger73]

Hardware is always a difficult thing to go through - however insofar as the exhaust is concerned - the DP is a slightly tweaked Golf R DP from VARdesign which has great results, and the catback is very close in design terms of the first generation VARdesign catback for the GTi 6 Golfs - which were putting out some savage power in testing, and coupled to the new vTracks are just ridiculously fast - so your exhaust should be doing what it should be doing.

I'm almost certain it's not the exhaust as I was getting similar 0-100 times before the catback exhaust went on. I'm just going back to what has changed on the car.

But then again it could be that performance I'm getting is "standard" for a stage 2 tuned 125TSI.

Still looking for some comparison data as to what I should expect.

What we could do with is some other Tiguans down there - I'm happy to fly down and make it worth their while with pricing just to make it happen. Could do it at a dyno day and live tune it with Technical online or something.

We'll probably organise another dyno day early next year. I'll let you know when it's on if you want to come down - interstate visitors are always welcome to our monthly events.

If it turns out to be nothing - normal - We're looking to drop a GTX onto a Tig up here as part of development - maybe you should just jump in feet first and do it I'll come down again for you and tune it and install some other development goodness whilst I'm at it

Hmmm tempting... but I need to get to the bottom of current tune file/performance/possible hardware issues first before looking at doing anything else.