Touareg R5 and Biodiesel

[TouaregTuff]

[QUOTE=Moonan;178463]Hi,
Just my $0.02...
To mostly confirm what Mischa said:
VW say NO for mostly 2 reasons...
1. They say what Mischa said about the standard of biodiesel in Australia. This is actually out-of-date as there IS a standard for biodiesel in Australia, and if the biodiesel meets that standard then it is OK in ANY diesel engine.
QUOTE]

Really??? Where can I read about this 'standard'? Got a link?

I dont think it exists.

You spent how much on the vehicle and your now willing to risk engine damage to save a few cents?? I dont think so.

[Moonan]

One of the features of a forum like this one is that it enables anyone to have and express an opinion, no matter how well (or ill) thought out it is. We should always show respect for this feature, and at the same time show respect for the other users of the forum. Generally this is not a problem here (in my experience) as VW owners are by and large thoughtful people; otherwise they would not have bought a VW!
That being the case, I was a bit disturbed by the apparent tone of the above post – being rather personal in nature in its suggestion that I am not telling the truth (referring to a standard for biodiesel) and also dismissively implying recklessness or at least poor judgement on my behalf in my choice of fuel (with the last two sentences). Now maybe I am being a mite sensitive here, but I have left it a week before responding…

Mr Tuff,
I see that you are a relative newcomer to this forum, as your profile shows that the above post was your second of a total of four contributions you have made. Welcome to VWWatercooled! Please add some details to your signature so everyone can see your “credentials” eg what model of VW you have and with a name like “TouaregTuff” probably what model of Touareg you have. If you don’t have one of these vehicles, no matter, everyone is welcome… you can put “Honda zot” or “H1 Hummer” in your sig if that is what you drive.
Now let’s look at the two points you made in your post.

• About an Australian Standard for Biodiesel. Where can you read about it?
  The easiest thing is to google “Australian Standard Biodiesel”. The very first article referred to if you do this is:Biodiesel fuel quality standard which is a link to the website of the relevant Australian Govt Dept website. From there, it is not hard to find the summary of the chemical and physical properties page http://www.environment.gov.au/atmosphere/fuelquality/standards/biodiesel/summary.html . So the standard exists.
• I “risk engine damage to save a few cents”??
  First let’s look at this thread, and the questions I was answering. I was not advocating the “saving of a few cents” but answering a specific question from an earlier poster about whether the specific price differential between petro-diesel and biodiesel at the time of the comparison would cover VW’s recommendation of more frequent fuel filter changes. Whether you save a few cents or spend a few more on the price of a litre of fuel is a matter of world market conditions etc etc, and if you look at biodiesel the factors include the export price of canola, the drought in inland Australia, and not just the usual ones of international oil speculators, arab dictatorships, the US military, and multinational oil company greed. At the time I wrote my post, the factory gate price for biodiesel locally to me had just gone up from $1.50 to $1.60, and retail diesel fuel was selling for approximately $1.89.
  As for risking engine damage – bad fuel can possibly cause engine damage. This is true of fuel from any source, be it “bio” or “petro” in origin. You can rest assured that diesel engines are able to run on biodiesel without the "bio" damaging them. (If your diesel was made before 1995 you should replace various rubber seals in your fuel system before trying). I assume that “bad” biodiesel can damage an engine, as “bad” petro-diesel probably can. Certainly VW had no problem when my engine was produced in stating that it was suitable for biodiesel, even if their Australian subsidiary was not up with that. As my earlier post said, there is a whole chapter on the use of biodiesel in my owners manual. In fact, there is a fair bit of evidence that biodiesel is probably better for the engine in that it has natural lubrication properties – sadly lacking in the modern “ultra-low sulphur” diesel now sold in Australia. Caltex adds 2% biodiesel to return some lubricity to its diesel.
  Where the “not for biodiesel” status of the newer VW’s comes from is the introduction of the diesel particle filter in the exhaust, as the testing for compliance with newer Euro environmental standards was signed off using petro-diesel.
• On the subject of “risking engine damage” I note that your earlier post includes a positive comment regarding a “dpchip”. I have one of them too. It is not a great risk of damaging the engine, but of the two, I’d say installing a dpchip and cranking it up to full output will put more stress on the engine than using biodiesel.

cheers

[Sunshineviking]

Thanks Moonan.

Sad reflection on many people's way of using fora...(forums?)

It seems that they see it as an impersonal way of having a rant..

Now if only I could get my hands on some of this stuff on the Sunshine Coast!
The irony is that we have one of the largest biodiesel plants in OZ in Narangba - just outside Brisbane, but they don't seem to want to sell the golden drop to Joe public!


Cheers

[Transporter]

To anybody who wants to save The Earth by using biodiesel.
Did you know that China is using in one day the same amount of diesel fuel as Australia in one year.

Why would VW without a good reason say no to biodiesel in their cars?
To me it is enough to use petroleum diesel.
I could only risk it if I have biodiesel for free. It is simple math:
if you spend $500 per month for diesel its $6,000/year in 5 years if you want to trade your car in you could be looking at buying a new engine and the fuel pump for it. I don't want to speculate but if you bought your biodiesel at half price you might need some thousands of $$$ to pay for the engine repair/replacement.
But I bat you, you didn't get bioiesel for 1/2 price? Did you.

[VW Convert]

With all due respect,

To anybody who wants to save The Earth by using biodiesel. Did you know that China is using in one day the same amount of diesel fuel as Australia in one year..

I don't recall anybody posting in this thread about saving the earth so I don't see the relevance of that point to the discussion.

Why would VW without a good reason say no to biodiesel in their cars?

Moonan gave us his perspective on that issue.

To me it is enough to use petroleum diesel.

As is your prerogative, just as it is Moonan's prerogative to use bio diesel and he has explained his reasoning.

I could only risk it if I have biodiesel for free. It is simple math:
if you spend $500 per month for diesel its $6,000/year in 5 years if you want to trade your car in you could be looking at buying a new engine and the fuel pump for it. I don't want to speculate but if you bought your biodiesel at half price you might need some thousands of $$$ to pay for the engine repair/replacement.
But I bat you, you didn't get bioiesel for 1/2 price? Did you.

Moonan provided a reasoned, rational explanation that bad fuel be it bio or petro would potentially cause expensive engine problems and (rightly or wrongly) that good bio diesel would not cause such problems, in your post you seem to be speculating that good bio diesel will damage the engine but you present no evidence to that effect.


My $0.02

Cheers

George

[Transporter]

With all due respect,



I don't recall anybody posting in this thread about saving the earth so I don't see the relevance of that point to the discussion.



Moonan gave us his perspective on that issue.



As is your prerogative, just as it is Moonan's prerogative to use bio diesel and he has explained his reasoning.



Moonan provided a reasoned, rational explanation that bad fuel be it bio or petro would potentially cause expensive engine problems and (rightly or wrongly) that good bio diesel would not cause such problems, in your post you seem to be speculating that good bio diesel will damage the engine but you present no evidence to that effect.


My $0.02

Cheers

George

Very well,
Here it is: Using biodiesel when the manufacturer says NO BIODIESEL equals to knowingly using bad fuel.
The owner manual in the glove box says use diesel fuel. Further more there is quite a large sticker on the inside of the fuel flap that clearly says ‘No Biodiesel’!
See it as simple instruction from car manufacturer for what fuel to buy when you arrive at fuel station.
Bottom line is:
By buying biodiesel one doesn’t save any money, so why risk the damage to the engine and voiding the warranty.

[VW Convert]

Very well,
Here it is: Using biodiesel when the manufacturer says NO BIODIESEL equals to knowingly using bad fuel.
The owner manual in the glove box says use diesel fuel. Further more there is quite a large sticker on the inside of the fuel flap that clearly says ‘No Biodiesel’!
See it as simple instruction from car manufacturer for what fuel to buy when you arrive at fuel station.
Bottom line is:
By buying biodiesel one doesn’t save any money, so why risk the damage to the engine and voiding the warranty.

That's fair comment, I doubt I would use bio diesel in such circumstances and the OP asked why VW recommended against the use of bio diesel. Moonan simply explained to the OP his interpretation of the reason that VW recommend against the use of bio diesel in the OP's car. I did not read any of the posts as recommending the use of bio diesel where VW specifically recommend against it.

Moonan explained that his own car does not carry that warning and in fact according to his owner's manual VW do permit the use of bio diesel subject to meeting the relevant standard.

The conclusion I would draw from that is that bio diesel per se is not "bad fuel".

Cheers

George

[Moonan]

Thanks for the comments (both pro-and anti)- all opinions are valid...

To MRL T5, I just say (as I said before) that I was honestly answering the questions of the earlier poster, and giving the benefit of my experience and research.
However, to use the blanket statement "bio = bad fuel" concerns me a little. With respect, please read the letter below (badly machine-translated from the german) which summarises VW's position on use of biodiesel.
It lines up with the owners' manual of my 2005 Touareg. As you can intimate from this letter, they would not be so approving if there was a diesel particle filter (newer models). The reason I understand for this change in policy is that mineral diesel was used in the compliance checks for the filter's "burn-off" of pollutants and so there is no certification for the latest "Euro 5" if biodiesel is used. Again, this does not make it inherantly "bad fuel" IMO.
The letter:
Sender: <vwvipservice@VOLKSWAGEN.DE> receiver: date: 12th Okt 2005 10:49 references:

Dear Mr. XXXX thank you very much for your message. Over your interest in the Touareg, we are happy very! Because the Touareg R5 TDI does not control a soot particle filter, it is organic diesel suitable. Please you note however: - the performances can be negligibly lower. - The fuel consumption can be
negligibly higher. - RME is winter suitable until ca. -10°C. - In outside temperatures under -10°C we recommend to refuel winter diesel fuel because the fuel filter can add itself.

For further questions or wishes to the Touareg, we are available you always gladly also by telephone under the
phone number 01802-Touareg (01802- 8682734). With kind regards your Volkswagen Touareg team"

Happy motoring, however you wish to fuel your VW.

PS, the chemist at the Rutherford biodiesel factory said on Monday that they sold >2 million litres in August, and are currently using around 95% recycled cooking oil as their feedstock (So if you want to "save the world" you can do a little bit...). Every batch is certified in a NATA std laboratory to meet the Aust. Std - necessary for them to get a rebate on excise.

[barefoot]

Good stuff Neil, I'm in, do you know how it compares against mineral diesel in terms of energy density? My dad used to think it was more dense, though reading your comparison in terms of fuel consumption perhaps it isn't? But perhaps it's due to optimisation for mineral diesel???

Now I have just have to find somewhere in Brissy that sells the stuff......

[Transporter]

Hi Neil.
Don’t get me wrong I don't want to pick on anybody here.
I didn't say that biodiesel is a bad fuel.
I said that:
Using biodiesel WHEN the manufacturer says NO BIODIESEL equals to knowingly using bad fuel (wrong type of fuel, it is the same, if it caused the mechanical failure).
For some vehicles biodiesel is “ok”.
Anything out of warranty the answer will be: Yes it is “ok” to use biodiesel.
In the time when your Touareg was made the owners manual was saying it was “ok” to use biodiesel the same as my T5 owner's manual, which has the same R5 engine. However when I asked VW Australia in 2005 about using biodiesel I was told NO. My dealer also said NO.
I would be careful, if they say YES to biodiesel once the vehicle is out of warranty.
About the owner's manuals:
Owner manuals are made at the same time as the vehicle and it is not easy to upgrade them. When a new information is available.
Sure the dealers could replace the pages in the manual when you go for the scheduled maintenance. But after the warranty I don't thing that they would do that.
All the reason behind No biodiesel in VW cars could be as simple as that they don't want that the food stock to be used as the fuel for the cars while we still have enough crude oil.
Another reason behind it could be that while your vehicle is under the warranty any problem arising from using the biodiesel would have to be covered by the warranty.
And why they would do that?

MM