Volkswagen under investigation over illegal software that masks pollution

**minke** · 08-01-2016, 08:11 AM

VAG have gone to several European banks and secured a 200b euro line of credit in preparation of the fines, legal fees and fixing of vehicles. The banks in turn ask VAG to confirm the name of assets they'll sell if their income falls and they're unable to service the loan. On the chopping block are:
Ducatti
Bentley
Mann
and two others I cannot remember. I'll have to dig out the article. It was in December.

Based on that, I think VAG are expecting a much higher number.

**The_Hawk** · 08-01-2016, 09:54 AM

Sanity would say plea bargain for a lesser cash fine amount + admit various fault(s) (some of which they have already done).
Personally I would like to see the fine money go to some health organisation or something directly to show some specific outcome (like building a new hospital or two) rather than into the machine where it will just disappear.

Reality will likely be a long legal battle where the only winners are the lawyers.

**Rawcpoppa** · 08-01-2016, 11:03 AM

Plea bargain may involve buy back of affected vehicles so it's still going to be a hefty sum.

**The_Hawk** · 08-01-2016, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by Rawcpoppa

Plea bargain may involve buy back of affected vehicles so it's still going to be a hefty sum.

I'm not suggesting they are getting it out of it cheap, but "cheapER" and quick probably beats a long drawn out trial and all the press that goes with that.

**ParaBul** · 08-01-2016, 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by Rawcpoppa

Plea bargain may involve buy back of affected vehicles so it's still going to be a hefty sum.

I don't see buy-back as a likely outcome.

I, personally, have no doubt that Volkswagen have committed fraud - others disagree. In my opinion, the major fraud was against the approvals organisations, who approved the vehicles based on fraudulently produced results. But these organisations aren't the owners of the affected vehicles.

I believe we owners are victims of fraud, in that the vehicle we own is technically not what we thought we were buying. Volkswagen is a premium brand, for which people pay a price premium, and expect premium quality - for many, that premium quality included the "clean diesel" technology that Volkswagen were touting as a premium feature. That particular feature we did not receive.

If we accept that a fraud was committed, then, technically speaking, rescission of the contract is a potential remedy - both parties are restored to the position they would've been in had the contract not been executed. This typically means the party seeking the remedy gives back all benefits obtained under the contract - how do you give back years of ownership of a vehicle? How does Volkswagen get back a factory-fresh vehicle? What is the appropriate price for buying back any given vehicle? A potential s***-storm of unimaginable proportions.

I believe that the most any court (in a modern, first world country) will award is compensation; partly a return of part of the "premium" owners paid for the "clean diesel" technology that they didn't get, partly compensation for being a "victim" of a fraud. Gut feel is that will be single-digit thousands for most vehicles, maybe getting into low double-digits for the most expensive affected vehicles, but I have no concrete basis for selecting these figures. However a suitable figure is calculated, I think it is most likely to be based on a percentage of the original purchase price, and not age or condition of the vehicle now.

So, ultimately I agree that any "Plea bargain" may include accelerated settling of class actions, but I doubt that buy-back will feature anywhere.

But I'm often wrong, so stay tuned for the announcement of a buy-back.

**Rawcpoppa** · 08-01-2016, 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by ParaBul

I don't see buy-back as a likely outcome.

I, personally, have no doubt that Volkswagen have committed fraud - others disagree. In my opinion, the major fraud was against the approvals organisations, who approved the vehicles based on fraudulently produced results. But these organisations aren't the owners of the affected vehicles.

I believe we owners are victims of fraud, in that the vehicle we own is technically not what we thought we were buying. Volkswagen is a premium brand, for which people pay a price premium, and expect premium quality - for many, that premium quality included the "clean diesel" technology that Volkswagen were touting as a premium feature. That particular feature we did not receive.

If we accept that a fraud was committed, then, technically speaking, rescission of the contract is a potential remedy - both parties are restored to the position they would've been in had the contract not been executed. This typically means the party seeking the remedy gives back all benefits obtained under the contract - how do you give back years of ownership of a vehicle? How does Volkswagen get back a factory-fresh vehicle? What is the appropriate price for buying back any given vehicle? A potential s***-storm of unimaginable proportions.

I believe that the most any court (in a modern, first world country) will award is compensation; partly a return of part of the "premium" owners paid for the "clean diesel" technology that they didn't get, partly compensation for being a "victim" of a fraud. Gut feel is that will be single-digit thousands for most vehicles, maybe getting into low double-digits for the most expensive affected vehicles, but I have no concrete basis for selecting these figures. However a suitable figure is calculated, I think it is most likely to be based on a percentage of the original purchase price, and not age or condition of the vehicle now.

So, ultimately I agree that any "Plea bargain" may include accelerated settling of class actions, but I doubt that buy-back will feature anywhere.

But I'm often wrong, so stay tuned for the announcement of a buy-back.

Buyback only in the US. Not worldwide. There are some tdi vehicles that cannot be brought into compliance with a software fix or simple hardware fix due to the US's more stringent emissions requirements.

**Rawcpoppa** · 09-01-2016, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by frantic

I'd say it's that and their stronger lemon laws. So if the $2 pipe from bunnings and the reprogram cause several increased wear issues with the engines systems like egr etc in the USA they could hit vw for the cost , elsewhere it's just suck it up ,out of warranty bad luck. Now considering the Ecu has run for 6 years at least 1/2 the cars are already out of warranty, throw in the projected 12months to recall and update all the effected vehicles and your now at 66% out of warranty.

It's more to do with the cars not passing certification to be sold in the US due to fraud.

**Amalgam** · 11-01-2016, 10:44 AM

US investigators trying to unravel Dieselgate scandal accuse VW of hiding behind German privacy laws

Volkswagen has refused to hand over emails, text messages and written notes to a number of state-based attorneys general – because, it says, to do so would break German law.

The US Justice Department last week blistered Volkswagen by insisting the car-maker had “impeded and obstructed” its investigators and provided “misleading information”.

http://www.carpoint.com.au/news/2016...igators-100835