That's a terrible characterisation of how the system works. The authorities keep raising the emissions bar, not because the manufactures are getting close (by the way, the goal is to actually beat the standards, otherwise they are not complying), but to stop the manufactures sitting on their laurel by forcing them to keep improving their emission standards.
Ahhmm, yeah. I maybe I have come across wrong but I think you have said what I was trying to say. Yes, raising the bar is a better analogy than moving the goal posts. My analogy implies the goal is not being reached. Sorry.
What I was trying to say is the Authorities kept raising the bar to force them to keep improving their emission standard but a point was reached where the bar was raised too high and it was no longer achievable. One cheated (we don't know who cheated first) and then all the others followed suit to meet the height of the bar.
As I have kept saying for whatever goes in, must come out. Since one of the solutions to reduce NOX is to add adblue or use more fuel, while NOX might go down something else must go up. Nothing is for free. More in means more out.
I'm also guessing the bar for NOX emission was raised faster than the others. Hence the predicament we are in now. Obviously there was less consideration for the other emissions. Now was it because they less of a problem or was NOX levels met easier and the bar was raised on NOX to force them to improve?
https://www.toi.no/environment-and-climate/diesel-cars-have-high-emissions-in-real-traffic-article33388-1314.html
The higlighted blue bits are LINKS!
Diesel buses n trucks, with cars being 2-5 times worse than their allowed they are worse than the trucks, now with vw being up to 40 times euro 5/6 the maths aren't that hard?
Firstly, and I should have said this in my original reply, I am truly sorry to hear that two of your children have been diagnosed with what is a serious and debilitating illness.
Now to your argument. In order to provide evidence of your original premise that we are defending "a fraudulent car [that is] claiming to be clean but in reality emitting more nox than a semi", you have provided a link to a Guardian article about two emission studies.
Originally Posted by arcadelt
It's the overblown hype that I have seen in this discussion (including your completely uninformed "claiming to be clean but in reality emitting more nox than a semi" comment ) that I am railing against.
This is exactly the kind of hype I was referring to, as the fact is the article and neither of the studies support your argument and have nothing to do with Volkswagen's use of illegal software to mask emission standards, which this forum thread is all about - and here is why...
The fraud committed by Volkswagen was in relation to the Euro 5 standard EA189 engine (and perhaps some others too, but all Euro 5 standard). The Guardian article states:
Both the Norwegian and London research tested vehicles meeting the newest and strictest Euro6 standard in similar lab-based tests that – unlike EU official regulatory tests – are realistic simulations of city driving.
The Norwegian study goes on to say:
Modern heavy vehicles including city buses with Euro VI engines have low emissions of nitrogen oxides (NOx) and exhaust particles (PM) for all types of test cycles. The reductions are more than 90% compared to the emissions from previous Euro V generations.
So, if you want to compare the Euro 5 VW cheat vehicles to heavy vehicles, you need to compare them to Euro V standard trucks and buses, which apparently have 90% more emissions than their now ultra-clean Euro VI descendants. The Euro 5 limit for NOx was 0.18 g/km for passenger cars and the Euro V limit for NOx was 2.0 g/km for trucks and buses. Now forgetting the much hyped 40 times emissions figure, the following table from the Center for Alternative Fuels, Engines & Emissions at West Virginia University study that broke the entire Dieselgate scandal shows (assuming cars A and B are the two VWs they tested, with car C likely to be the BMW) that at no times do the Euro 5 VW NOx emissions go near the 2.0 g/km that is the Euro V standard.
Therefore, when actually comparing apples to apples, I conclude VW cheat vehicles are NOT "in reality emitting more nox than a semi" (and yes, I have a sad life if I have nothing better to do on a Friday night than this).
PS. I'm not taking anything away from the Guardian article and studies it refers to, as the conclusion they reach about Euro 6 versus Euro VI vehicles is truly troubling, and it seems the difference all comes down to the tolerance the vehicle manufactures have for using AdBlue. If NOx are really killing that many people a year, then perhaps this should be what Euro 6 cars should be implementing.
Last edited by arcadelt; 06-11-2015 at 07:51 PM.
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It's pretty clear many posters prefer to give VW the benefit of the doubt despite whatever articles are published out of this entire issue.
They don't read articles or they ignore sections that really answer their questions then pose new questions as they grasp at straws. It's unfortunate really.
It's pretty clear many posters prefer to give VW the benefit of the doubt despite whatever articles are published out of this entire issue.
Well sort of. I have no doubt they lied but I don't think what they lied about is so much of an issue for customers as it is for Authorities. I don't think many, if any people bought there vehilces based on low NOX output however regulators set out rules which the manufacturer was required to meet and they lied about meeting those rules. I don't think there is much doubt about that.
It's pretty clear many posters prefer to give VW the benefit of the doubt despite whatever articles are published out of this entire issue.
They don't read articles or they ignore sections that really answer their questions then pose new questions as they grasp at straws. It's unfortunate really.
...or maybe just don't believe everything the media are trying to feed you. Using knowledge and the common sense rather then someone else's stories. Many posters in this thread are motivated and driven by gaining somethings frome it. Well, it just goes down to basics of the human nature, doesn't it?
Well sort of. I have no doubt they lied but I don't think what they lied about is so much of an issue for customers as it is for Authorities. I don't think many, if any people bought there vehilces based on low NOX output however regulators set out rules which the manufacturer was required to meet and they lied about meeting those rules. I don't think there is much doubt about that.
Happy Days
Even that is debatable. Many may not have purchased when looking at NOx but they may have bought based on fuel econ and power and I don't think it's surprising that persons post in relation to these things being affected in some way after recall.
My post wasn't in relation to that though. It was more towards those that defend VW from a regulatory and corporate level. Many posts go after the journalist while ignoring the various regulatory documents that the said journalists pulled their data from.
Class action posts I have no opinion on. Some persons are money hungry yes. I'm sure some actually do feel aggrieved. I wouldn't put down everyone though. Let it go before the courts I'd say as that seems fair.
...or maybe just don't believe everything the media are trying to feed you. Using knowledge and the common sense rather then someone else's stories. Many posters in this thread are motivated and driven by gaining somethings frome it. Well, it just goes down to basics of the human nature, doesn't it?
I agree don't believe everything you hear in the media. However lots of persons post documents from the regulatory agencies as well and I would believe those over the general media articles yet we have persons who clearly haven't read those documents piping up with responses disputing. It doesn't add to the discussion imo.
However what do you say to not believing the media but believing VW? After all the EPA called them out since last year and VW stalled for over a year. There is a reason people are skeptical of VW and why they tend to side with the media on this topic.
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Originally Posted by frantic
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