Golf GTI -v- Toyota FT86

[WhiteJames]

I agree with you to the extent that the rear end would be identical in spring & damping rates. I could not detect any difference. The front is obviously differing in spring & damping rates, which works the rear end harder in the BRZ and offers greater front end composure at expense of ride comfort. Bear in mind that a 10% increase in spring rate in the BRZ front on a 1260kgs Coupe is nothing to sneeze at in terms of changing handling dynamics. Up to 10% increase in my Volkswagen Driver Gear Springs on a 1380kgs hatch has made a tangible difference.

The MOTOR Mag article provides all the evidence you need to decipher the differences I have experienced. Stiffer front end has ABS cutting in earlier in the BRZ. One twin stops 1 metre shorter than the other for 100-0kph stop. FT86 had a faster lap with the softer front helping point the nose into the corner. The BRZ did better in the hill climb with the softer relative rear end aiding traction uphill. The different stats on each twin is tangible evidence that they go about things in different ways. Even subjective driver ratings had each twin rated differently for driver satisfaction. All the evidence is in the article itself.

Furthermore ... Wheels Mag and Top Gear Mags are also citing tangible differences in suspension tune & feel. I’ve driven both in order to decipher myself if the differences are apparent, and they are apparent. Does this make it any easier in choosing between the two as an ownership proposition, having driven both, ... No. It only makes it more difficult due to subtle differences on paper than offer a palpable difference in drive experience & handling dynamics. Interesting enough ... the Toyota offered more vibration through the gear ****er than the BRZ. Go figure.

Cheers.
WJ

[Tobes_WIR35]

Apples VS Oranges

[kaanage]

From all the reviews, including the one here, I'd be inclined to buy the Toyota and fit rebound adjustable front dampers and an adjustable front anti-roll bar to it so it could be easily taughtened up when need be, since it's almost always easier to stiffen up a vehicle's response than to loosen it off (unless you're jacking up a 4wd for extra clearance).

[WhiteJames]

Ratings

Now that I have a fancy iPad-3, the latest edition of EVO comes early every month. This month’s article on ‘Spot the Difference’ on the BRZ and FT86 hit the nail on the head on the differences between the two coupes.

The Toyota FT86, I found, pivots around its central axis with the rear end moving outwards on the corner entry ... a bit like a Golf GTI with upgraded rear only aftermarket sway bar. Once into the corner around apex, the rear end starts gripping, and the softer front starts pushing wide on the FT86. This is when the driver has to moderate throttle input, or back-off the throttle in some cases to keep a tight line on corner exit to counter the apex to exit understeer. The rear end is also more progressive in the way it moves around.

The BRZ, as the EVO article suggests, pivots around a point that is further forward of its central axis, which imo creates a feeling of initial understeer into corners ... just like adding a good set of matched front & rear sway bars on a Golf GTI. The rear end of the BRZ stays planted & maintains stability right up the apex. Once off the brakes and onto the gas, the BRZ is more stable, balanced & neutral. Powering out of corners does not involve the harder front end slipping into understeer as in the case of the FT86. The BRZ just holds on in a very balanced, direct & secure way, although you do feel the rear suspension working harder and moving around to a greater degree. From apex to exit, there is no need to feather or roll-on or off the throttle in the BRZ as in the case of the FT86 ... aggressive throttle application on corner exit has the BRZ chassis just holding its desired line. This also holds true if you want to tighten or loosen you corner exit line.

Thing with the BRZ is that in terms of driver involvement, the BRZ nonchalantly works its way up to grip threshold with minimum of fuss, making it clinically sharp, but less challenging for the driver. The FT86 on the other hand, never really holds that ultimate corner balance for any more than a fleeting second, if that; preferring to dance from front to rear depending on steering angle & throttle application, which requires a lot more adjustment from the driver. The BRZ holds the balance for most of the way around the corner after initial turn-in in a very planted fashion.

On another note, the Golf GTI was also driven immediately before the BRZ as in the case of the Toyota. The GTI was driven twice in normal DCC mode and Sport DCC mode re: electric dampers. The GTI is far from disgraced in this comparison ... after initial turn-in, leaning on the GTI will have the rear end sway bar shifting the trajectory of the front heavy & light rear GTI to a greater degree than either the BRZ or FT86 from corner apex to exit, sometimes with a XDS pinch of the inside front wheel to maintain the chosen line. The GTI is still fun up to a point, perhaps more fun than the BRZ as the GTI progressively moves around in the rear end, whereas the BRZ is just so composed right through corner and the FT86 dancing between front & rear grip levels with a bit of heave and yaw rear to front depending on steering angle & throttle position.

The Golf GTI, or any hot hatch for that matter, has to have stiffer suspension to control the higher centre of gravity. Riding in the GTI is sort of like sitting on a box with the suspension underneath you, rather than sitting in the box with the suspension next to you as in the case of the twin. The lean angles in a hot hatch a much greater. It worse still with the Golf R with the motor sitting even higher to accommodate the AWD system.

I’ve revised my rankings in hindsight ... after driving the BRZ.

Golf GTI – 8/10. ... progressive hot hatch.
Toyota FT86 – 9/10. ... for adjustability, driver involvement, ride comfort and fun factor.
Subaru BRZ – 9/10 ... for an awesomely honed, direct, balanced & unflappable rwd chassis.

Now here’s the interesting part ... EVO have chosen the Toyota FT86 over the Subaru due to its adjustability, forewarning & forgiving nature at & over the limit (BRZ arrives at 10/10ths with much less warning & less fuss), and understeering tendency after corner entry. On the other hand, Motor Trend in the USA are in the process of finding the ‘Best Driver’s Car’ for 2012, giving the FT86 Toyota the flick for the Subaru BRZ due to its on-the-limit neutrality, added driver confidence, balance and ability for the driver to be more aggressive & brake later and get on the power earlier.

See video: Behind the Scenes of 2012 Best Driver's Car - Wide Open Throttle Episode 29 - YouTube


Cheers
WJ

[SilvrFoxX]

I think the rating for quality finish and practicality need to be in the ratings.. I took a look at the BRZ yesterday and if that is the better of the 2 then the Toyota must be a shocker.

If you were comparing it to the MX5 then I think it would make sense but having a GTI in this mix is just confusing.

My thoughts are once everyone has taken delivery and the hype has died down you will be picking them up for 12 grand a pop with 15 k on the clock and if you are lucky they havn't been modded to the eyeballs.

[Tobes_WIR35]

I think the rating for quality finish and practicality need to be in the ratings.. I took a look at the BRZ yesterday and if that is the better of the 2 then the Toyota must be a shocker.

If you were comparing it to the MX5 then I think it would make sense but having a GTI in this mix is just confusing.

My thoughts are once everyone has taken delivery and the hype has died down you will be picking them up for 12 grand a pop with 15 k on the clock and if you are lucky they havn't been modded to the eyeballs.

Yes I agree, and at that point they will be good value and would make a great weekend toy.

Comparing one to a GTI (or any hot hatch) in anything other than an outright performance comparison is futile. Not taking away anything from the BRZ or FT86 as I'm sure they are great at what they are intended for, but they cannot (and are not trying to) compete with the GTI in practicality, comfort, space, etc. I mean, good luck fitting your mountain bike in the back of one, or a step ladder, or a piece of furniture. Not to mention baby seats, passengers, golf clubs, etc etc.

Those points are what (I think) most people consider when they're buying a hot hatch, as a good compromise between performance, safety, design, practicality, comfort and technology.

[nat225]

but the GTI & R (can't switch off the ESP completely) are plain hopeless in motorkhana exercises...

[bwen]

but the GTI & R (can't switch off the ESP completely) are plain hopeless in motorkhana exercises...

That's what most people think when they own a GTI or R, that they own a sports car

[WhiteJames]

Can't arque on the issue of practicality re: Golf. As for interior ambience ... I also found the BRZ's silver dash and **** Smith aftermarket style Bluetooth (non SatNav) and cheap radio offensive. But all this paled into insignificance once I drove the vehicles. Like for like ... the BRZ is $800 better value (inc. data dots & free 3 year servicing) than the FT86 GTS. Should I be so lucky to sell my GTI for low 30's K ... it's only a matter of coghing up around 8K for a new BRZ with new 3 year warranty & 3 years free servicing. The Toyota servicing is capped at $170 for 3 years during warranty. Add in an expensive 60K Golf GTI with DSG service, extended warranty after 3 years is up, perhaps new tyres, maybe new brakes on the GTI ... now the twins are looking a lot better value than ever before. Subaru are happy to return your 3K deposit up to 4 mths prior to delivery date (12 mths waiting time atm on BRZ) if your rescined on the contract. Toyota Dealer is asking for 1K deposit and similar terms of return of deposit a couple of weeks before FT86 is scheduled to be built. Can't fault resale and saleability of either Toyora or Subaru. If the twins were a Volvo, Peugot, Renault, Saab, Fiat, Citreon, Opel, Alpha Romeo, etc ... then I'd be worried. As for modifications ... I'd steer clear 2nd hand turbo cars in general. The N.A. FT86 and BRZ should be very robust vehicles, even with the occassional skin-pan or track day. Brakes on the twins seem to be holding up quite well for half-dozen laps on the track. The BRZ doesn't need any modification other than better tyres ... that's the beaty of the twins. The Toyota may be taxing on the softer front, but ride comfort & progressive chassis tune make up for the softer frend end. Now ... the serious decision ... order now ... or order later? Is it going to be BRZ or FT86?
Cheers.
WJ

[GolfVI]

Interesting.. I have a MK6 118TSi at the moment and I was set on getting a MK6 GTI... however I have now ordered an 86GTS.. They get such a great write up and there isn't many negative points.

As a Golf owner and having driven quite a few GTI's I weighed up the pro's and cons of both the 86GTS and the GTI and ended up deciding on the 86. Right or wrong, here were my reasons:

-Rear wheel drive
-Mk6 is up for replacement soon... where as the 86GTS is the next generation of car.
-HID's, LED's, Sat Nav, Leather/Alcantara, push button start, blah blah blah.. all standard in the GTS

I don't share the same opinion as the members on here saying they will be 12k in a few years when the hype is gone. The 86GTS is unique in that it is a truely affordable rear wheel drive light weight, fun to drive car. Sure the Golf is more practical, better finish inside etc.. but for me, given my other points this was an easy decision... also I'm not sure how many of you have seen an 86 in the flesh however I will point out they have quite a bit of presence for such a cheap car.. definitely turn a lot of heads, of course that is not a reason to buy the car.. there is no denying they are a cool car.