Golf GTI -v- Toyota FT86

[bwen]

Good little write up WJ, as a person who has driven the 86 it is truly understated vehicle. Not my cup of tea but it is a great car, much better than what the GTI/R as a sports car but not better than the GTI/R as a 'jack of all trades'.

[WhiteJames]

Agree with you on the paragraphs in post #1 ... amended accordingly.

It appears to me, and journos have noted also, that the slightly softer front end springs has the front end leaning more heavily on the outside front corner on corner entry ... sort of like when guys add a rear-only only sway bar to their GTI.

Once a turn into a corner has commenced, the weight starts to shift from the front outside tyre to the rear outside tyre to a degree ... this then activates the stiffer rear end springs & the rear sway bar that counters the rear-end body roll by twisting & transferring load to the inside rear wheel ... this in-turn causes causes a slight imbalance with the rear end slip. It helps point the Coupe into a corner more aggressively ... as does a rear-only stiffer sway bar on a GTI.

The yaw slip is only momentary. However, once you get on the power and cause the rear torsen LSD to apportion power from inside wheel to outside rear wheel in concert with the stiffer rear end end causing some slip, you do have a the rear move around for short moments causing a loss of overall balance and front to rear grip. This requires a bit more effort on corner entry and patience when applying power exiting a corner and makes the drive more challenging imo.

Having rear MOTOR Mag BFYB Shoot-out earlier today, I agree with the comments made that the Toyota would be tad more difficult to extract the best from with that slight inherent inbalance on corner entry due to rear end slip. Wakefield Park is a tight circuit that requires good turn-in, so the Toyota FT86 did quite well.

On a faster more flowing circuilt like Eastern Creek, I'd put a five spot on the BRZ as being the quicker of the two in that it should be able to hold that neutral balance for longer on the longer & faster sweeping bends, rather than see-sawing front to rear that with the front & rear fighting each other for outright grip.

I prefer the look of the interior of the Toyota FT86 GTS with better SatNav radio and Carbon Fibre treatment. The Subaru has the data dots and full alloy spare with imo is a must for country/interstate touring. Subaru is the better looker in the exterior dept imo esp with spoiler. I'm on the list for a drive in the BRZ to compare it against the FT86 Coupe.

Cheers
WJ

[kaanage]

Perhaps this is a case for an adjustable front anti-roll bar so the balance can be adjusted for tight vs flowing track use. For public roads, it would seem the Subaru would be the 'safer' car as it will be more inherently stable - odd given the usual propensities of the 2 brands.

[WhiteJames]

The Golf GTI would have to ride a bit harsher to prevent the higher CoG from creating too much body roll. The Mark 7 will remedy this with a lower CoG and wider tracks, which does not require as much suspension travel. Should help cut down on suspension noise hopefully. Just when the GTI starts to get exciting, the electronics reins thing in. The FT86 is a RAW experience ... definitely feel the vibrations coming through the manual gearshift lever.
Cheers.
WJ

[WhiteJames]

Here's a youtube.com video with two opinions on the BRZ (Auto) and Toyota FT86 (Man). Highlights differences in the suspension tune:

Scion FRS (GT86) vs. Subaru BRZ on Track - Everyday Driver - YouTube

It's not about raw power ... it connecting corners that makes for fun.

Cheers.
WJ

[WhiteJames]

BRZ –v- FT86

Had the opportunity to test drive the Subaru BRZ several days after driving the Toyota FT86 GTS. The same Boat Shed – Royal National Park route was driven by both vehicles, with a bit of around Sutherland town and freeway thrown in for good measure. The test drive was a reasonably short, but offering a variety of roadway types and texture.

I immediately felt the firmer damping esp. in the front of the BRZ. The first 1km showed that the BRZ offer terser damping and high spring rate with greater control and vertical movement at slow speed around town. This does detract from ride comfort in the BRZ –v- FT86, with the FT86 offering front end ride comfort comparative to a standard Camry or Aurion around town. The difference in ride comfort and control between the BRZ and FT86 is like going from standard Golf GTI spring to aftermarket genuine Volkswagen Driver Gear Sport springs on my Golf GTI (DG Sport are about 10% stiffer & 10mm lower than stock GTI springs).

In addition to the taunt and terse ride of the BRZ over the FT86, the BRZ offered addition front end control out on the Princes Freeway just south of Sutherland – Cronulla. The BRZ steering felt a tad heavier, appeared to have less on centre slack relative to chassis movement, but did not telegraph as much information as the lighter steering in the Toyota FT86. The BRZ filters out that bit more roadway steering feel, trading it for a smoothness and a touch more directness. The BRZ steering wanted to self centre to a greater extent with the stiffer front suspension inducing a touch more added understeer at freeway speeds.

In contrast, the FT86 front end on the freeway felt more wayward and wondering like a boat at sea. The front of the FT86 wafted over the vertical compression and vertical control was sluggish compared to the BRZ, which offers damping/spring rate combination that brings the handling/ride control about half-way toward the stiffer aftermarket Koni/Bilstein/Tein damping/control range. The softer front end of the FT86 does inhibit driver confidence at higher speeds or when leaning on the FT86 a with some vigour.

Once into the Royal National Park (RNP) entry roadway, the BRZ definitely rode with less comfort, but greater vertical control than the FT86 Toyota. The FT86 dispatched with the peaks, troughs, pot-holes and scarred sections of the RNP B-grade roadway with tangibly greater ride comfort than is almost like standard Camry level of comfort/control. The FT86 floatiness seemed a bit odd when keeping in mind the purpose of this Sport Coupe. The BRZ offered shorter & faster body movement quickly dispensing with roadway irregularities. The BRZ is about half way between the Toyota FT86 and my DCC equipped DG Sport sprung Golf GTI for ride comfort ... although the BRZ kills the Golf for bump control. The FT86 is the pick for ride comfort. The BRZ for outright chassis control.

Traversing the Boat Shed bends down into the valley had the FT86 offering sharper initial chassis movement on turn into corners. This required less initial steering effort, but slight corrections once the FT86 Toyota changes direction as the front end initially leans lower and deeper, but bounces back slower without truly settling for long periods of time. This in combination with slightly lighter steering weight, required greater effort and attention by the driver to control the weight movement of the FT86 chassis and corner balance for a smooth arc around the tight twisties.

Negotiating a corner in the FT86 requires a series of small adjustments that keeps the FT86 driver on their toes right way through the corner, heightening the driver feedback sensations and putting greater emphasis on being graceful with the steering and throttle controls. The FT86 conjures up a dance between the front and rear ends in terms of grip & slip keeping the driver on their toes at public roadway speeds. The FT86 is the more challenging for the driver and the difference is akin to a DCC equipped Golf GTI –v- Standard Sprung (non-DCC) Golf GTI.

The BRZ in contrast dished up a greater amount of understeer on corner entry due to the less adjustability of the stiffer front end. Corner entries required a heavier hand to steer the BRZ into a tight bend. The driver has to be more aggressive to tip the Subaru BRZ’s weight onto the outside front tyre. The BRZ was less adjustable mid corner on both the steering and throttle control, but offered a greater chassis balance with less driver effort from initial turn-in onwards around the whole trajectory of a corner.

The Subaru BRZ offer a sharper more go-kart handling response, which makes it much easier to put around the tight twisties. The FT86 requires a lot more from the driver to achieve the same result when negotiating a hill climb with chassis responses being a lot more regard compared to the secure race car like BRZ that is set up closer to what you average AWD Subaru (Golf R Awd) would expect.

The FT86 chassis tune felt like it did not need any additional power as the chassis is set-up to provide less balance than the BRZ. The BRZ, offering greater balance and secure handling, felt like it was underpowered and could do well with added power. The FT86 Toyota had the rear limited slip diff (LSD) feeling a little too tight, despite the rear diff being a torsen, rather than mechanical diff. The BRZ was the opposite in that the stiffer front aids in the improvement in rear end grip, suggesting that the torsen LSD could be a little tighter (esp. for track). You could dive into a corner harder and get on the power earlier and harder in the BRZ with the BRZ still feeling like it was the slower car of the FT86/BRZ pair due to the greater chassis balance and control over the FT86 Toyota.

The stiffer BRZ is definitely leaning the rear end harder, utilising the rear end grip to a greater degree, pushing the Michelin Primacy tyres harder into the roadway. The FT86 Toyota rotates around its central axis faster, but the BRZ felt that it could corner harder and faster when pressing on. The Toyota FT86 gains time in initial turn-in into bends, the Subaru makes up time at corner apex and on corner exit.

On the uphill drive, I found the softer front end of the Toyota FT86 to be annoying at times. When on the power out of corners, the softer front of the FT86 would lift, pushing the trajectory of the FT86 wide, causing the driver to lift off or maintain a steady-state throttle to maintain a nice tight line.

The lift-off or steady-state throttle application was not required in the BRZ, which was more business-like in terms of race-car type of secure handling. It was the uphill run that confirmed for me that the BRZ’s greater chassis balance could cope with more power to spice things up a bit ... perhaps an issue for those harder-core types looking to upgrade the power figures of these twins ... the Subaru’s chassis tune would more easily handling any power upgrade, whereas the Toyota FT86 would require a visit to the TRD parts bin to tie things down a little more. The BRZ was so effective at dispatching the corners, although with less adjustability, that, like a DCC equipped Golf GTI, it does not require a lot of driver thought in comparison with the Toyota FT86. Trying to unsettle the BRZ rear end requires a lot more effort than that of the FT86.

Which one wins this comparison. There are not winners or losers when it comes to the twins. The Subaru, surprisingly, even with a slight increase in front end stiffness in spring & damping rates, really transformed the BRZ into a more direct, capable, racy, less comfortable, sharper instrument, but with less adjustability and fun factor. The Toyota offers greater ride comfort, greater amount of adjustability in terms of lift off oversteer, less overall balance, a wandering front end on power out of corners, but ultimately less front to rear grip levels and corner balance. The Subaru is the easier vehicle to driver faster & harder and may well be the less taxing on the driver on a day long drive around the mountains, despite the terser ride comfort. The Toyota FT86 offers greater sensual appeal at any speed and requires much more effort of the driver for greater thrills out on public roadways. The softer front of the Toyota is a definite advantage on day long mountain drives with added ride comfort, but the wafting & wayward front end may be taxing on longer drives when the drivers just wants to get from point A to point B with the minimum of fuss.

I think a decision would come down to price and availability when it comes to choosing between the twins. As stated in the beginning of this BRZ –v FT86 review. Going from the Toyota FT86 to the BRZ is like going from a Golf GTI with standard springs to a Golf GTI with genuine aftermarket 10% stiffer Volkswagen Driver Gear Sport springs, offering greater control & secure handling, but reducing chassis adjustability, driver effort and fun factor.

Cheers
WJ

[MACCAA]

The guys from Motor struggled to pick much difference on the road between the two.
I'd bet if no-one was told of the suspension differences ,they wouldn't either.
Did you check if the tyre pressures/wheel alignment settings were the same?
Luffy said there wasn't anything between them either.
Strangely enough,the allegedly superior BRZ was 3/10ths slower around Wakefield.
So much for the differences.......

[WhiteJames]

^Perhaps you should read this months Wheels Magazine out today.
The jounro picked the difference straight away.
If only the RNP Boat Shed had 4 car widths with which to play with. One foot either side ... with plenty of bumps, undualtions, pot holes and scarred sections.
The Driver Gear Sports springs are only 8-10% stiffer than standard GTI springs with no change in damping ... less than the difference between the FT86 -v- BRZ ... I and others notice plenty difference in ride/handling mix on the GTI with the same dampers (see golfmk6.com DG springs review thread).
Why bother putting the VW Racing APR distrubted Sports springs for 1K fitted to a GTI if the FT86 -v- BRZ with 10% change in spring rate and slightly different damping rates offer a greater change in spring/damper rates -v- APR distributed VWR springs?

Cheers.
WJ

[MACCAA]

The journo picked the difference because he'd been told about it beforehand.....
Reminds me of the story about Tiff Needell being sent O/S to try Pirelli's new range of tyres.

There were about six different ones,and Tiff dutifully drove them all,lapping all the combined journos with ease,being a far better driver than any of them.
At the finish he rang his editor and said that there was no story,he couldn't pick any difference.
Then the journos stories started to appear,waffling on about tread shuffle,sidewall compliance,etc etc,and every other minute detail...... because they were told that the tyres were different........

[Diesel_vert]

Just because one cannot detect any differences doesn't mean there aren't any differences.

It then becomes a matter of consequence, i.e. does it make any difference?

...

WJ's critique of the twins might not be invalid, but it may or may not be relevant depending on one's interests.

Or with the example of tyres - there may be measurable differences between Pirelli's and their competitors, but will that be of consequence to the driver? It would depend on who you ask. For example, with subjective feel, some may detect differences, others may not.

The art of waffling, bias or conflicts of interest can of course obscure the truth, but one has to be good enough to sort though that and take only what's relevant to them, if any.