103kW/125kw TDI PD Piezo Siemens injector failure thread

[yowie]

Yep, it is a last-of Mk 5, so PD.
Has given no hint of trouble to date, hoping it stays that way.
Thanks for the feedback.

[Greg Roles]

Pacific is the Bosch 103kw engine, and despite poor Harlie's experience, isn't overly prone to failure. The 125kw had pizeo injectors, not the 103 from what I understand....they were "new" for the souped up diesel.

[jazd]

Info on piezo injectors, no wonder they are expensive
Piezo injectors > TDI Engines > Powertrain > Innovation > Experience > Volkswagen International Homepage

[harlie]

Finally have the car back, I was going to transport it home and source parts, do the work myself (or get Jmac in) but I simply have too much on ATM and Austral wanted $220 to give me the car unfixed (add transport home and I wasn’t going to save much, if anything).

To add insult to injury:- It has always been a bit Smokey under heavy throttle usage, and for the past 18 months it has been lethargic to start (most times), both these issues have disappeared COMPLETELY with the replacement of injector #2 – I had the car to Austral VW and Weber’s P&P for these issues twice over the last 12 months – while the extended warranty was still running, obviously not diagnosed (Austral tried to sell me a new starter).

I’ve seen the faults that were recorded, interesting thing is that most of the 103kw that have failed (they have been rare) - the car will still start, and shut itself down 10-12 sec later, all smoothly. The ECU is shutting down after detecting the problem, clear the fault and it drives for quite a while - so the problem is very different to the 125 engines, where it shorts out the bank, only restart after the faulty one is unplugged.

[yowie]

Mine also smokey under acceleration, but I figure that goes with the territory.
I dont see any reason to panic though. Many kays of 103 TDI happy-motoring ahead.
Harley, I cant tell whether you are happy it's not a warranty issue. If you still consider it a warranty issue and you gave the trader a chance to fix, for 90-odd bucks you can get a no-frills hearing at QCAT.

[rockDAhouse]

well ... i'm in the market for a 08 GT DSG, after reading this thread i'm getting worry .....

[Transporter]

well ... i'm in the market for a 08 GT DSG, after reading this thread i'm getting worry .....

I understand that, it would give me enough reason to get a new car instead. Imagine that you would have to replace the injectors with the wiring and VW wouldn't come to the party? I however believe that if one is either nice and approach the VW with the right arguments or makes a lot of noise, he/she wouldn't pay the full price, (I prefer the nice way, it gets you further). The replacement injectors apparently have 7 years warranty on them.

[harlie]

Mine also smokey under acceleration, but I figure that goes with the territory.
I dont see any reason to panic though. Many kays of 103 TDI happy-motoring ahead.
Harley, I cant tell whether you are happy it's not a warranty issue. If you still consider it a warranty issue and you gave the trader a chance to fix, for 90-odd bucks you can get a no-frills hearing at QCAT.

Thanks yowie - honestly I'm not that concerned about not being covered. I was when I was informed that they are SO unreliable that all 4 must be replaced (that was the statement from Austral). However this whole experience just highlighted the lack of understanding that the dealer franchises have on this problem, and IMO this is a direct fault of VWA not passing on all the facts (because they know!). In essence, the problem with a 103 injector is not only rare but completely different to the failure of a 125 – Greg has touched on this earlier. Unfortunately I now know far more about VW PD systems than I ever wanted to.

The 125 (and 3.0V6 pd engines for that matter) are highly likely to experience another failure due to a flawed design of the piezo crystal structure that controls the nozzle in the original injectors. VW global claim the replacement injectors have this issue sorted. To me (and apparently VWA) that is a warranty issue no matter how old, you will fight on ratio but should win a reasonable portion. When an injector in the 125kw 2.0 (or 3.0V6) fails it shorts out the entire bank of injectors rendering them all completely useless because the signal from the ecu to the nozzle control mechanism is shorted, that’s why the engine will start (on 3) once the faulty injector is physically unplugged from the electrical loom. Until the faulty injector is unplugged the engine is completely dead.

My research tells me that the injectors fitted to the 103 are not only from a different manufacturer but do not even use a piezo crystal to control fuel metering. They have the older solenoid system. Use VAGCOM to clear the faults and it will drive home – well maybe, at least go until the ECU decides there is a problem and shuts it down again – mine went just over 6km after the faults were cleared. Completely different behaviour to the 125 because it’s a completely different problem. Unfortunately since numbers are down no one has independently striped one down so the point of failure is not exactly known.

Back to the warranty argument – VWA are of the opinion that the original design (of 103) is not flawed, they also know that they are not failing in numbers, yeh I know that there are a few mentioned here but do some research, the ratio displayed on this forum is not an accurate reflection – an independent repairer working in Brisbane (hint – he’s mobile), who I now would consider to be the guru of Audi/VW has never seen a 103 fail, he’s lost count of 125s he’s now done. The unfortunate issue is that the Dealer workshops have absolutely no knowledge of the differences and just see a 2.0tdi come in the door and give the same recommendation (replace 4). They honestly were not aware that the two versions of the engine have different injectors. I look at the failure of a 103 injector to be just bloody unlucky, just like an injector failure in a BMW, Merc, Pug, or any other make. Or a premature timing belt failure or any other component.

I’m certain that we would not have a win on a 103 claim in SCC, I’m also sure that the VOSA action in the UK doesn’t cover the 103. I replaced one injector; I’ve paid for it and am moving on. I’m also not the first person to pay in full… I will update the Failure Register with parts prices, for future reference.

For you – you’re right there is absolutely no reason to panic, hell, don’t even think about it. All the 2.0s I see will give a puff but mine was particularly smoky when pushed, it was actually quite bad, nothing like I see with other golf V platforms around. Mike at P & P (serviced for the last 4 years) agreed. I spent quite a bit of time on it with an injection specialist; essentially he tried everything in his arsenal to improve it (and he did improve it). Only strange thing was it took so long between first causing fueling issues (black smoke) and failure. So now that the obviously faulty injector is replaced the engine is in a state that is running significantly cleaner than the average, hence no smoke, really none, not even in the following headlights at night when buried, I’ve owned diesels for 14 years now and none have run this clean. I realise that mine is now not normal (in the other direction) and I expect to see the haze gradually return… Until you notice heaps of black smoke and changes in its starting habit, don’t worry – there are far more Toyota 4x4s (to mention 1) failing than 103PD VWs.

[harlie]

well ... i'm in the market for a 08 GT DSG, after reading this thread i'm getting worry .....

Look for a good 103 - flash tune (130kw) and suspension upgrades and you have the same thing. Add a body kit if you must...

OR go to a GTD, they are CR but hey we all thought PD was the go once... Before someone harps on about PD being internal so the heat bla bla bla - Unit injectors have been used for years by many manufacturers. To my knowledge none have a failure rate anywhere near the Seimens product talked about here.

[stickshift3000]

Unfortunately I now know far more about VW PD systems than I ever wanted to.

Informative post Harlie, thanks for the info.