R36 wanted for new ECU tune testing

[R36FTW]

I'd also lke to see independent proof of these gains. If you look at it though, in a KW gained per dollar ratio, it's terrible value. Not having a go at you at all John, but the numbers speak for themselves. It's a 15 KW gain at the most, which is less than 10% of the total power. That aint worth $700 to me. I just honestly don't see the point in tuning these cars.

[R34]

I thought $700 is fair for 15kW
Harder to extract additional power from a NA
It's not only the peak power increase but an increase in the midrage power and torque which could make the car feel a lot different.
good value especially if the throttle remapping is done.

On another tack I test drove a new A6 3.0S/C that has 5kW less than the R36 but felt oh so good in the midrange.
I really miss forced induction

[R36FTW]

Well you know how little it would cost to get more than double that out of a forced induction car. Tuning NA's has never been worth it really in terms of power to dollar ratio. The other side of this though that I don't get is why? The R36 isn't fast, and even tuned with 15kw more its still not going to be fast. I bought one as its a nice not too slow wagon that's comfortable. I just think some poeple have the wrong idea about them and buy them thinking they're quick cars and go down the 'how do I get more power route' which with an NA is a short very expensive journey with minimal gains.

Each to their own though of course.

I think tuners may be talking about at the engine gains too with the R36 tunes.........I'm yet to see before and after dyno charts so so far it's all talk. Also developing a tune on one car, then flashing it to other cars is a recipe for underperformance and can be dangerous, unless the tune is so conservative that they'shouldnt' run into issues. This kind of walk in flash the ecu walk out tuning mentality is a joke, and you rarely see it in the Japanese car scene. Ive never seen so many off the shelf super conservative but cost heaps chip tunes until I came into the VW scene.

With Japanese cars, they actually dyno and/or road tune every car as each car and each engine behaves a little differently. You pay say $600-900 for hours on a dyno to properly tune your car. If these VW Tuners are asking $700 for flashing a tune to the ECU without actually using a dyno to properly tune the car, it's just ridiculous. If you are going to tune a car, do it properly or don't do it at all IMO. From the wording of the tunes advertised, both in this thread and other websites, they develop tunes on a single customers car, then once they have this 'tune' they flash it to everyone elses car and charge them all $XXX. If this is not the case, and they properly dyno tune each and every car they should make a clear point of it. If its just a flash tune, they should be charging flash tune prices rather than dyno tune prices.

[R34]

My WRX had a ECUTEC tune done
ECU had to be posted over east and reflashed for around $1800
I think that was expensive from what was actually done but it did net 30-40kW

[buzuki]

Well you know how little it would cost to get more than double that out of a forced induction car. Tuning NA's has never been worth it really in terms of power to dollar ratio. The other side of this though that I don't get is why? The R36 isn't fast, and even tuned with 15kw more its still not going to be fast. I bought one as its a nice not too slow wagon that's comfortable. I just think some poeple have the wrong idea about them and buy them thinking they're quick cars and go down the 'how do I get more power route' which with an NA is a short very expensive journey with minimal gains.

Each to their own though of course.

I think tuners may be talking about at the engine gains too with the R36 tunes.........I'm yet to see before and after dyno charts so so far it's all talk. Also developing a tune on one car, then flashing it to other cars is a recipe for underperformance and can be dangerous, unless the tune is so conservative that they'shouldnt' run into issues. This kind of walk in flash the ecu walk out tuning mentality is a joke, and you rarely see it in the Japanese car scene. Ive never seen so many off the shelf super conservative but cost heaps chip tunes until I came into the VW scene.

With Japanese cars, they actually dyno and/or road tune every car as each car and each engine behaves a little differently. You pay say $600-900 for hours on a dyno to properly tune your car. If these VW Tuners are asking $700 for flashing a tune to the ECU without actually using a dyno to properly tune the car, it's just ridiculous. If you are going to tune a car, do it properly or don't do it at all IMO. From the wording of the tunes advertised, both in this thread and other websites, they develop tunes on a single customers car, then once they have this 'tune' they flash it to everyone elses car and charge them all $XXX. If this is not the case, and they properly dyno tune each and every car they should make a clear point of it. If its just a flash tune, they should be charging flash tune prices rather than dyno tune prices.

Couldnt agree more.

Although off topic, i used to fit Lpg vapour gas injection/liquid gas injection and not ONCE did the next car get the same tune as the last, even though they were identical.

You can make a conservative tune which doesnt make peak power, but dull the tune slightly so it then can suit most of the vehicles, but never will it be the best tune your car can get.

[johnw]

Well you know how little it would cost to get more than double ............If its just a flash tune, they should be charging flash tune prices rather than dyno tune prices.

Agree to a certain extent (and certainly for NA cars), but I mean these cars are mass produced and mass tuned from the factory anyway. So what's the big difference between a flash tune and a custom tune for a stock car? I do agree that every car is indeed different and behave differently (especially with other mods and age) but then so does every dyno run, even on the same dyno (to a lesser extent).

A custom tune I agree would be the best, but it depends on who's doing it and if you go to the wrong person, your car can be worse off. Seeking peak power tune is probably more for competition but I reckon the average customers prefer some kind of tried and tested results.

And yes, they do charge too much, basically for a few dyno tuning sessions with a few customer cars, but like Aussie prices for everything else, if there's demand then they can charge what they want.

The difference I've notice on my 1.8T is, I reckon, well worth the price I paid for the "of the shelf" tune.

[R36FTW]

There can be quite a large difference in terms of power - midrange and topend - with a conservative off the shelf tune and a real dyno tune. Sure each dyno run is different but that's in terms of measured power output, which is produced from an algorithm and slight variations in tire adhesion to the rollers etc causes variation. Now what you do when dyno tuning a car is make the ECU hit as many load cells as you can, and interpolate those inbetween while measuing AFR's, detonation, Injector duty cycle, boost etc. The car can hit the same load cells every time and put out slightly different results - this does not mean the tune is inconsistent - the measurement of the power output is due to environmental variables.

Now you may think an off the shelf tune is safer than someone tuning your car for real, but I disagree. Take your example of a dodgey tuner out of the equation - sure it happens but that is not exemplifying what a real tunes benefits are. By the same token you could ge a data read/write error when flashing your ECU with your mail order tune and have 40 degrees of advance programmed for a load cell causing detonation when used. **** can happen but we should compare an error free mail order tune to a dyno tune from a reputable tuner.

Factory tunes may all be the same, but they are also extremely conservative. This is why with 'only a tune' you can get 30+ KW out of a stock car. They run the fuelling, timing etc on the safe side and engines with higher compression ratio's running just a bit leaner on a really hot day with lower octane fuel and 4 big guys in the car still won't detonate and have the ECU pull timing. A mail order tune is incrementally more aggressive than this, it differs, but they have to play it safe - they dont want Mr Audi 1.8T owner buying a tune then blowing a ring land due to detonation and sending them the bill. The thing is, you don't know what your engine is doing on a mail order tune - no one measures a thing, you just flash it and hope for the best.

I have mates who's cars couldn't take anywhere near as much timing as another mates before it was knocking. Some fuel pumps deliver less flow or pressure than another of the exact same model. Fuel injectors differ in flow rates and spray patterns. Some rings seat better and the cars compression ratio is higher. I could go on. Mail order tuners have to tune so they get safe results on any car that tune is flashed to. That's why they are conservative.

On a dyno, the tuner can see how your car is responding, can dial in more timing, sees some knock, increases the injector duty cycle or pulls timing, ups the boost, AFR's lean out, increase injector duty cycle.......etc. After all this is done, your car is safe, not knocking, has good solid AFR's across the rev range, turbo is in it's comfort zone, and it's developing maximum power. That's what you lay your hard earned down for. A real tune, for your specific car. Anything else I would not waste your money on, not because you don't get some gains, but because you could do so much better on the dyno with a real tuner.

[johnw]

Now you may think an off the shelf tune is safer than someone tuning your car for real, but I disagree. Take your example of a dodgey tuner out of the equation - sure it happens but that is not exemplifying what a real tunes benefits are. By the same token you could ge a data read/write error when flashing your ECU with your mail order tune and have 40 degrees of advance programmed for a load cell causing detonation when used. **** can happen but we should compare an error free mail order tune to a dyno tune from a reputable tuner.

Factory tunes may all be the same, but they are also extremely conservative. This is why with 'only a tune' you can get 30+ KW out of a stock car. They run the fuelling, timing etc on the safe side and engines with higher compression ratio's running just a bit leaner on a really hot day with lower octane fuel and 4 big guys in the car still won't detonate and have the ECU pull timing. A mail order tune is incrementally more aggressive than this, it differs, but they have to play it safe - they dont want Mr Audi 1.8T owner buying a tune then blowing a ring land due to detonation and sending them the bill. The thing is, you don't know what your engine is doing on a mail order tune - no one measures a thing, you just flash it and hope for the best.

I have mates who's cars couldn't take anywhere near as much timing as another mates before it was knocking. Some fuel pumps deliver less flow or pressure than another of the exact same model. Fuel injectors differ in flow rates and spray patterns. Some rings seat better and the cars compression ratio is higher. I could go on. Mail order tuners have to tune so they get safe results on any car that tune is flashed to. That's why they are conservative.

On a dyno, the tuner can see how your car is responding, can dial in more timing, sees some knock, increases the injector duty cycle or pulls timing, ups the boost, AFR's lean out, increase injector duty cycle.......etc. After all this is done, your car is safe, not knocking, has good solid AFR's across the rev range, turbo is in it's comfort zone, and it's developing maximum power. That's what you lay your hard earned down for. A real tune, for your specific car. Anything else I would not waste your money on, not because you don't get some gains, but because you could do so much better on the dyno with a real tuner.

If the off the shelf tuners are "playing it safe" by making their tune "incrementally more aggressive", how is it less safe for your car as opposed to the custom tuner who seeks to achieve "maximum power" by dialing in and pulling timing, upping the boost etc on you car on the dyno?

Again, I don't disagree that custom tunes are better for power per individual car, but if a custom tune is so aggressive as to take into account the difference in fuel pump and injector rates and compression due to ring seat (which all change with age of the car as well), wouldn't it be more susceptible to "going out of tune" with wear and environmental changes?

Factory tune is for the average Joe, flash tune are for the average Joe who wants a bit more power. Custom tunes are for people who wants maximum output from their cars.

[Preen59]

I find it interesting that a lot of people seem to think they know more about a product, or a process than the person who is doing it/selling it..


I'd pay $700 for 15kw any day of the week on an atmo car.

That's cheap as dirt. Chip tuning, FI or NA is the cheapest horsepower adder you'll find.

Put a $1300.00 exhaust on and see if you get 15kw! Not even a Akraprovic Ti exhaust worth 3k will give you 15kw.


All the best to you, John.

[R34]

I'd pay $700 for 15kw any day of the week on an atmo car.

That's cheap as dirt. Chip tuning, FI or NA is the cheapest horsepower adder you'll find.

Put a $1300.00 exhaust on and see if you get 15kw! Not even a Akraprovic Ti exhaust worth 3k will give you 15kw.

I agree, I'd happily pay $700 for 15kW and stronger midrange