DSG finally gone in the MK8

[Sydneykid]

Seriously?! That is ridiculous...as detailed by Sharkie. Yeah, nah....good riddance DQ200.
I doubt VW will miss your sale given they're likely to pick up a heap more because of the switch to a conventional TC auto.

Probably won't miss a sale, I'll just get a GTi with DSG instead. I hate torque converter autos, they are slow and not fuel efficient. In effect VW has effectively pushed me into spending more money to get a DSG, so they are probably happy with that result.

I would guess 95% of the customer when buying a Golf will have no idea about the change, to them an auto is an auto.

Cheers
Gary

[Lucas_R]

I hate torque converter autos, they are slow and not fuel efficient.

Some of the modern torque convertor autos are fantastic and as far as you would know you are driving a DSG equipped vehicle (eg ZF 8 speed auto as fitted to many AWD and RWD cars such as BMW, Audi, Alfa Romeo, Toyota Supra etc). I have the ZF 8 speed in my Audi SQ5 and you get the smoothness of a traditional auto in parking/traffic situations, but the speed of a DSG in terms of gear changing and acceleration.

I would guess 95% of the customer when buying a Golf will have no idea about the change, to them an auto is an auto.

Agreed.

[goobags]

I would guess 95% of the customer when buying a Golf will have no idea about the change, to them an auto is an auto.

Will probably attract some buyers too, lots of people don’t like ‘high tech’ VW’s with expensive gearboxes


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sydneykid]

The arguments about efficiency, warranty and buyer concern doesn't stack up for me. For Europe VW still specify the 7 speed DSG in their 1.5 litre as the torque converter auto doesn't pass Euro 6d emissions. We can only get torque converter autos because they pass the lower Euro 5 emission standard we have.

So only Australians are concerned about "‘high tech’ VW’s with expensive gearboxes" but the Europeans are OK with it? And VW is only concerned about DSG warranty here, but not concerned in Europe (where they sell millions more cars)? What am I missing?

Cheers
Gary

[Sharkie]

The arguments about efficiency, warranty and buyer concern doesn't stack up for me. For Europe VW still specify the 7 speed DSG in their 1.5 litre as the torque converter auto doesn't pass Euro 6d emissions. We can only get torque converter autos because they pass the lower Euro 5 emission standard we have.

So only Australians are concerned about "‘high tech’ VW’s with expensive gearboxes" but the Europeans are OK with it? And VW is only concerned about DSG warranty here, but not concerned in Europe (where they sell millions more cars)? What am I missing?

Cheers
Gary

For somebody normally, so knowledgeable, it seems your love of the DSG has blinded you to its faults and that you have done no reading up or research on what is actually wrong with the DSGs.

Many, many threads and articles around on the reasons of the failures of DSG boxes. For the DQ200, it was mostly a case of no proper testing by VW before releasing it into "hot weather" markets. The inherent design of sticking the electronics/mechatronics inside surrounded by hot gearbox oil is flawed. Most of VW's testing pre-release occurred in Europe where the testing in cooler weather simply did not show any major issues. Once the cars hit "hot weather" regions massive numbers of failures led to multiple recalls for DSG equipped vehicles. It took intervention from the media and regulators to get VW to actually address the very clear flaws. And they only put a band-aid on it till they could come up with a proper replacement.

Do a bit of research into it, perhaps it will change your mind.

And BTW, affected cars came from the US, China, Japan, South Africa, Singapore and Australia with only limited issues seen in Europe. It got so bad in China that the government forced VW to recall almost all DQ200 equipped cars (and there where hundreds of thousands). Well over a million cars worldwide has been affected ..... Australia alone recalled over 100,000 vehicles ....


This was simply the biggest failure of VW technology ever .... even worse than Dieselgate or the twincharge fiasco.

[genebaby]

The only reason we are getting TC autos in the next Golf isnthey are giving us the less efficient drivetrain. It's why we still have the 1.4 engine.and we have no mild hybrid options.

Australia is getting the dirty crap. VW aren't doing it as a triumph of the TC over the DSG, it's because they can and yes, most won't notice, but the GTI and R shoppers will.

Same as how the US market got the TC in standard Golf and the DSG in the GTI and R. This was due mainly as the average American was not savvy, but the GTI and R owners would not have bought their cars with a TC, unless maybe all of Europe were using them.

It's for nothing to do with anyones feelings or past issues with the DSG, it's our emissions standards that allow it.

We are not getting the best VW can offer. Skoda on the other hand sold my mother a car with the 1.5 and DSG, though they did backtrack on the Karoq, removing the DSG in a VW way, as they were required in other markets.

[Sharkie]

The only reason we are getting TC autos in the next Golf isnthey are giving us the less efficient drivetrain. It's why we still have the 1.4 engine.and we have no mild hybrid options.

Australia is getting the dirty crap. VW aren't doing it as a triumph of the TC over the DSG, it's because they can and yes, most won't notice, but the GTI and R shoppers will.

Same as how the US market got the TC in standard Golf and the DSG in the GTI and R. This was due mainly as the average American was not savvy, but the GTI and R owners would not have bought their cars with a TC, unless maybe all of Europe were using them.

It's for nothing to do with anyones feelings or past issues with the DSG, it's our emissions standards that allow it.

We are not getting the best VW can offer. Skoda on the other hand sold my mother a car with the 1.5 and DSG, though they did backtrack on the Karoq, removing the DSG in a VW way, as they were required in other markets.

Whilst the emissions compliance certainly has something to do with it, the fact is that the most noisy markets (complaints wise) about the DSG, all got dealt with for the MK8. In the USA, the base Golfs have had the 8spd tiptronic since 2019 (as did the US Jetta's) and the MK8 base Golfs (non GTI/R) will not be released. The same applies to every other "problem" country (read hot weather here) except for Australia. South Africa, Japan and Singapore all discontinued with China not confirmed yet. These countries are all getting GTI/R models only for the foreseeable future.

So ... VW addressed the issues they were having in these regions by 1) adopting a tiptronic instead of the DSG (USA for the MK7.5 and Australia MK8 ) and 2) discontinuing the base Golfs (and thereby the DQ200 DSG). Getting away with lesser emissions compliance is just a bonus .... the benefits of less bad press and costly warranty repairs outweighs the costs of having to run 2 sets of specifications.

[Sydneykid]

More than happy discuss different viewpoints, we are all affected by our own personal experiences.

Personally I have trouble understanding why DSG's are such a huge problem in some countries but not others, why they are OK in Europe and not here or the US, it is a widely held view that the Chine recall was politically motivated to force VAG to build more factories there. Is it possible that it is the drivers that are the problem not the gearboxes?

Mechanically my only issue with a DQ200 (over 200,000 k's combined in 3 different cars) was a failed solenoid on the Polo R/2/4/6 mechatronic unit which doesn't look any different to the solenoid on the DQ250 in my son's MK7.5 R. Simplistic as that is I'm not convinced that the mechatronics on the DQ200 are inferior to those on the DQ250. I can understand the dry clutch versus wet clutch argument, but I have not had any issues there. I can also understand the oil capacity questions regarding the 7 speed versus 6 speed, which could manifest itself as excessive heat, but again I have experienced no problems there.

On the question of the MK8 and emissions, we are getting the "old" 1.4 with the "new" torque converter gearbox, which as a combination passes our Euro 5. Whilst the Euro 6 regions are getting the "new" 1.5" with the "old" DSG required to pass their emissions requirements. There's a lot of somewhat unique engineering involved in our combination, sufficient that it most likely is the main reason for the long delayed launch of the Mk8 here (not that there aren't other factors involved). The lost sales alone, due to the lack of stock, would be $millions, hence why VW endlessly whinge about our fuel quality. Which FWIW is almost solely an E10 and Pump 92 question, our Pump 95 and 98 are both almost at Euro 6 Standard, hence their inflated cost, and wouldn't take much to get them there.

I still retain my view that VW will not gain any sales as result of moving to a torque converter gearbox because 95+% of the customers have no idea that there is a difference to a DSG gearbox, they are "automatics" (don't have a clutch pedal) and that's all that matters.


Cheers
Gary

[Cossor]

Thank you Garry for well thought out comments.

My first VW was the MK6 Golf, (replacing a TC Commodore and TC Corolla.)
This had two problems affecting ease of driving (not reliability)

As a driver I had to learn;

1.0 Do not hesitate entering my garage. Narrow entrance with a raised entry lip caused car to stall if entry speed too low. Then pushing on the accelerator would cause a high speed entry. OK, so try careful nudge of accelerator? Result, DSG overheat and safety disengage.
2.0 Do NOT park facing down hill. This could create a sudden high speed exit in some car parks, with far less control than parking in
my garage. Careful modulating of accelerator and hand brake was required. (My current Passat has Auto Hold to prevent rolling backward prior to uphill start. Have not tried it reversing uphill, learned my lesson from the Golf)

I understand there are two basic versions of DSG used by VW. Dry clutch and oil filled clutch. I think my diesel Passat 6 speed is oil filled?
I have NO complaint with Passat DSG. My only indication is by watching display to see what gear is in operation. the gear changes are so smooth.

BUT I now have to make up my mind between 110TSI Tiguan with 6 speed DSG and 162TSI Tiguan with 7 speed DSG. (Or the laid back 147TDi diesel with more grunt), Compounding the situation, I seem to remember my MK6 Golf was 7 speed DSG

[Sydneykid]

Thank you Garry for well thought out comments.

My first VW was the MK6 Golf, (replacing a TC Commodore and TC Corolla.)
This had two problems affecting ease of driving (not reliability)

As a driver I had to learn;

1.0 Do not hesitate entering my garage. Narrow entrance with a raised entry lip caused car to stall if entry speed too low. Then pushing on the accelerator would cause a high speed entry. OK, so try careful nudge of accelerator? Result, DSG overheat and safety disengage.
2.0 Do NOT park facing down hill. This could create a sudden high speed exit in some car parks, with far less control than parking in
my garage. Careful modulating of accelerator and hand brake was required. (My current Passat has Auto Hold to prevent rolling backward prior to uphill start. Have not tried it reversing uphill, learned my lesson from the Golf)

I understand there are two basic versions of DSG used by VW. Dry clutch and oil filled clutch. I think my diesel Passat 6 speed is oil filled?
I have NO complaint with Passat DSG. My only indication is by watching display to see what gear is in operation. the gear changes are so smooth.

BUT I now have to make up my mind between 110TSI Tiguan with 6 speed DSG and 162TSI Tiguan with 7 speed DSG. (Or the laid back 147TDi diesel with more grunt), Compounding the situation, I seem to remember my MK6 Golf was 7 speed DSG

The stalling is interesting, in over 1/4million k's in VW's with DSG's I can't say as I have experienced a single stall, but mine have all been petrol, not diesel. I reverse every day out of our driveway which is quite steep, for the Golf with the electronic handbrake I just hold the switch up until the gearbox engages, then drop the switch together with a touch of accelerator. The Polo GTi has a manual handbrake lever so it's much the same technique, just a bit more arm action. The auto hold works great on the occasions when I back them into the driveway.

The only real DSG "trick" I learnt early on was rolling up to an intersection, stopping for an instant, then realising that there was small gap in the traffic and trying to accelerate. That's a big no no, the combination of stop start and DSG is a trap in that particular situation.


Cheers
Gary