Tiguan IS38 and Big turbo upgrades

[Melbourne_Tiggy]

Thanks for doing the R&D on your car. I think 4,000rpm sounds plenty.



Hmmm what other plans do you have to get the last 0.11s?

Also what wheels/tyres are you currently running? Perhaps some more grip may get you a tenth??

Lol R&D for the benefit of the community!!

Standard OEM R Line Suzuka 20” rims with Pirelli Scorpions Verde 255 / 40 R20. They are 30 kg as a package, a little on the heavy side. I’ll probably change them in 12 months time to MPS4S, but they have been pretty good so far. Weight reduction / unsprung weight will help a bit.....

I think for all intents and purposes, I’ll call in a day on the hardware mods. I’ll wait for a cold 10 degree day in Melb and do another LC at 4000 RPM, but for the record books 4.1s stock IS38 at full weight.

[Melbourne_Tiggy]

Should try the vcds/obdeleven adaptation on the haldex. Might help awd be engaged from launch or engage sooner:

I have obdeleven so might give this a go, thanks for the suggestion. Have you tried this and noticed any difference ?

[Psych101]

I have obdeleven so might give this a go, thanks for the suggestion. Have you tried this and noticed any difference ?

No I haven't tried it yet. Also not sure if your TCU tune already has an affect on this but it might be something to experiment with.

[OZROD]

I posted this throttle response adaptation in the vcds tweaks thread but didn't get a response about whether anyone has tried it and if it works?

Did anyone try this out?

[Psych101]

Did anyone try this out?

I haven't yet. It's posted in a few different forums but what I don't understand is how changes to the power steering module can affect throttle. Intuitively you would think it would be for progressive steering but no one has made that claim

[tigger73]

I had this conversation recently with someone else looking at options for IS38/stage 3 on a Tiguan and here's the summary of discussion...

You really have to work out what you end-game is and work towards it.

The choices you have is to go down a "generic" flash tune approach - tuners like Revo/APR who have defined hardware packages/options. You're best off using their hardware/turbos and load a flash tune that has been tested with a specific set-up.

Other option is to go "custom" tune and you have E-tuners/UGP/RD Technik and a few others and you can pretty much pick your turbo and hardware that you want and get a tune done for your hardware/mods. There's more flexibility but more choices too.

If you are happy with a pre-canned flash tune to give you a pre-defined result then APR/Revo are not bad options (slight difference in tuning philosophy between the 2).

The custom tuners can do similar thing with pre-canned stage 1 or stage 2 files but can also customise them to provide quicker throttle response, over-run crackles and a range of other things that you just don't get from a pre-canned stage flash tune.

The problem that I see with APR is that you are locked into running their specific turbo/tuning packages which are limited.

You can go IS38 route and roll the dice (these are not the most reliable stock turbo) or you can go with the APR stage 3 EFR7163 which they recommend rebuilding your engine. There's really no middle ground.

So if you want more than a stage 2 file with the stock turbo you either have something with potential reliability issues or you have a very expensive project car that can do high 10/low 11 second quarter miles and 530+hp.

Which is why I'm going the custom route and keeping power under 500hp which means I shouldn't have to rebuild my engine and good thing is the TTE475 spools up a good 500-1,000rpm sooner than the 530hp turbo options.

If you're going to be using your can in traffic/city you don't want it coming on boost at 4,000rpm. There's just no point really and it'll be a bit of a dog to drive as a daily.

I did look into UGP but I'm not a fan of the response of the snail turbos. They're again spooling up around the 4,000rpm area and for a daily driver that's not what I want.

Here's a dyno chart of the TTE470:



Compare this to a UGP IS20 snail turbo which spools up quite a lot later:



Or this Snailturbo 480 (is38 hybrid):



Torque curves are all shifted to the right and only come on around 4,000rpm which is why I looked at other options.

I'm not chasing a time down the drag strip. What I want is a really quick sleeper that is very drive-able as a daily driver.

[Melbourne_Tiggy]

I had this conversation recently with someone else looking at options for IS38/stage 3 on a Tiguan and here's the summary of discussion...

You really have to work out what you end-game is and work towards it.

The choices you have is to go down a "generic" flash tune approach - tuners like Revo/APR who have defined hardware packages/options. You're best off using their hardware/turbos and load a flash tune that has been tested with a specific set-up.

Other option is to go "custom" tune and you have E-tuners/UGP/RD Technik and a few others and you can pretty much pick your turbo and hardware that you want and get a tune done for your hardware/mods. There's more flexibility but more choices too.

If you are happy with a pre-canned flash tune to give you a pre-defined result then APR/Revo are not bad options (slight difference in tuning philosophy between the 2).

The custom tuners can do similar thing with pre-canned stage 1 or stage 2 files but can also customise them to provide quicker throttle response, over-run crackles and a range of other things that you just don't get from a pre-canned stage flash tune.

The problem that I see with APR is that you are locked into running their specific turbo/tuning packages which are limited.

You can go IS38 route and roll the dice (these are not the most reliable stock turbo) or you can go with the APR stage 3 EFR7163 which they recommend rebuilding your engine. There's really no middle ground.

So if you want more than a stage 2 file with the stock turbo you either have something with potential reliability issues or you have a very expensive project car that can do high 10/low 11 second quarter miles and 530+hp.

Which is why I'm going the custom route and keeping power under 500hp which means I shouldn't have to rebuild my engine and good thing is the TTE475 spools up a good 500-1,000rpm sooner than the 530hp turbo options.

If you're going to be using your can in traffic/city you don't want it coming on boost at 4,000rpm. There's just no point really and it'll be a bit of a dog to drive as a daily.

I did look into UGP but I'm not a fan of the response of the snail turbos. They're again spooling up around the 4,000rpm area and for a daily driver that's not what I want.

Here's a dyno chart of the TTE470:



Compare this to a UGP IS20 snail turbo which spools up quite a lot later:



Or this Snailturbo 480 (is38 hybrid):



Torque curves are all shifted to the right and only come on around 4,000rpm which is why I looked at other options.

I'm not chasing a time down the drag strip. What I want is a really quick sleeper that is very drive-able as a daily driver.

Hi Tigger, are you responding to someone / or a post in particular, or are these general remarks?

[tigger73]

Hi Tigger, are you responding to someone / or a post in particular, or are these general remarks?

This was a discussion that happened on another group, however I thought the information was very relevant to this group also with people looking to navigate the way through upgrade options.

[Melbourne_Tiggy]

I had this conversation recently with someone else looking at options for IS38/stage 3 on a Tiguan and here's the summary of discussion...

You really have to work out what you end-game is and work towards it.

The choices you have is to go down a "generic" flash tune approach - tuners like Revo/APR who have defined hardware packages/options. You're best off using their hardware/turbos and load a flash tune that has been tested with a specific set-up.

Other option is to go "custom" tune and you have E-tuners/UGP/RD Technik and a few others and you can pretty much pick your turbo and hardware that you want and get a tune done for your hardware/mods. There's more flexibility but more choices too.

If you are happy with a pre-canned flash tune to give you a pre-defined result then APR/Revo are not bad options (slight difference in tuning philosophy between the 2).

The custom tuners can do similar thing with pre-canned stage 1 or stage 2 files but can also customise them to provide quicker throttle response, over-run crackles and a range of other things that you just don't get from a pre-canned stage flash tune.

The problem that I see with APR is that you are locked into running their specific turbo/tuning packages which are limited.

You can go IS38 route and roll the dice (these are not the most reliable stock turbo) or you can go with the APR stage 3 EFR7163 which they recommend rebuilding your engine. There's really no middle ground.

So if you want more than a stage 2 file with the stock turbo you either have something with potential reliability issues or you have a very expensive project car that can do high 10/low 11 second quarter miles and 530+hp.

Which is why I'm going the custom route and keeping power under 500hp which means I shouldn't have to rebuild my engine and good thing is the TTE475 spools up a good 500-1,000rpm sooner than the 530hp turbo options.

If you're going to be using your can in traffic/city you don't want it coming on boost at 4,000rpm. There's just no point really and it'll be a bit of a dog to drive as a daily.

I did look into UGP but I'm not a fan of the response of the snail turbos. They're again spooling up around the 4,000rpm area and for a daily driver that's not what I want.

Here's a dyno chart of the TTE470:



Compare this to a UGP IS20 snail turbo which spools up quite a lot later:



Or this Snailturbo 480 (is38 hybrid):



Torque curves are all shifted to the right and only come on around 4,000rpm which is why I looked at other options.

I'm not chasing a time down the drag strip. What I want is a really quick sleeper that is very drive-able as a daily driver.

Just a few points to balance the discussion:

The OEM IS38 early versions had high failure rates due to oil starvation/start stop issues typically those turbos referred to as version A. The versions produced > 2015 ie version H/T et al are more reliable and have been used extensively in MK7 GTI / IS20 and GEN 3 EA888 upgrades. These are sold by most reputable tuning shops and online Motorsport stores and is the main stream and common upgrade path for those wanting more than stage 2 ie maxed out IS20.

Most of the big name tuners, REVO, GIAC, APR, United Motor Sport, COBB, Eurodyne etc have invested in tuning OEM IS38s and have different power output files to support both early and late version IS38s in addition to having files with things like pops and bangs (fuel over run). These tuners have tuned 100s or more OEM IS38s over a number of different variations (Skoda/Audi/VW) and 1.8/2 litre EA888 and know what the safe albeit reliable/ conservative limits of the motors are. They will not risk the life of your turbo or motor and will keep things safe and reliable.

In terms of cost, a new OEM IS38 is around 1/2 the cost of a hybrid IS38, it is bang for bucks and can be found second hand from as low as $800. The dollar to power equation is the most logical, reliable and cost effective solution. Going IS38 hybrid for up to 15-20% more power at double the cost doesn’t add up for me including additinal risk in pushing the stock engine to its limits, finding a reputable tuner who has done many of these so you aren’t the test mule and have a known outcome, and being able to easily source a replacement quickly and locally either new or second hand if the turbo dies. These factors should be considered when making an upgrade decision.

As a side note custom tuners like Underground (UGP) have tuned OEM IS38s, TTE/ hybrid IS38 and their own brands they push like Snail. They are highly reputable in the custom tuning scene and if I was going down the custom path, I would be going to them as they have a good track record, experience in tuning IS38s and hybrids and can get reliable usable power.

Saying all of that we need hybrid IS38 pioneers for the Tig, so if bang for bucks is not a consideration and money is no object do it for the community!

[tigger73]

Just a few points to balance the discussion:

The OEM IS38 early versions had high failure rates due to oil starvation/start stop issues typically those turbos referred to as version A. The versions produced > 2015 ie version H/T et al are more reliable and have been used extensively in MK7 GTI / IS20 and GEN 3 EA888 upgrades. These are sold by most reputable tuning shops and online Motorsport stores and is the main stream and common upgrade path for those wanting more than stage 2 ie maxed out IS20.

Most of the big name tuners, REVO, GIAC, APR, United Motor Sport, COBB, Eurodyne etc have invested in tuning OEM IS38s and have different power output files to support both early and late version IS38s in addition to having files with things like pops and bangs (fuel over run). These tuners have tuned 100s or more OEM IS38s over a number of different variations (Skoda/Audi/VW) and 1.8/2 litre EA888 and know what the safe albeit reliable/ conservative limits of the motors are. They will not risk the life of your turbo or motor and will keep things safe and reliable.

In terms of cost, a new OEM IS38 is around 1/2 the cost of a hybrid IS38, it is bang for bucks and can be found second hand from as low as $800. The dollar to power equation is the most logical, reliable and cost effective solution. Going IS38 hybrid for up to 15-20% more power at double the cost doesn’t add up for me including additinal risk in pushing the stock engine to its limits, finding a reputable tuner who has done many of these so you aren’t the test mule and have a known outcome, and being able to easily source a replacement quickly and locally either new or second hand if the turbo dies. These factors should be considered when making an upgrade decision.

As a side note custom tuners like Underground (UGP) have tuned OEM IS38s, TTE/ hybrid IS38 and their own brands they push like Snail. They are highly reputable in the custom tuning scene and if I was going down the custom path, I would be going to them as they have a good track record, experience in tuning IS38s and hybrids and can get reliable usable power.

Saying all of that we need hybrid IS38 pioneers for the Tig, so if bang for bucks is not a consideration and money is no object do it for the community!

100% agree with what you've said. There's a lot of good reasons to go stock IS38 including ease of finding a replacement if ever required.

I guess what I wrote was my reasoning behind going down the path that I have. Agree 100% that the IS38 is tried and tested and that if you want a known quantity then this is a very good option. Plus 0-100 in 4.1sec is nothing to be sneezed at.

I get the argument that going for a "mild" hybrid IS38 doesn't make a heap of sense in terms of $/kw, however if you don't want to rebuild an engine then this is about the limit of the stock internals. The next step up from here is where there's significant costs, bigger turbos and laggier response.

It's a tricky one as an IS38 is such a relatively cheap upgrade compared to a hybrid turbo. Don't worry I tossed up going IS38 many times before biting the bullet and saying TTE475 or nothing!

To max out the stock internals requires a small hybrid turbo and these things are 2-3 x price of a stock IS38. It's just production volumes that dictate the price. The factories are pumping out 1,000's if IS38's compared to 10's of hybrids.

I know I'm paying a premium for it but hopefully I'll be happy knowing the next step up was going to be another $10k and I was never going to do it.