Some help/advice for a problem I can't solve

[D13S3L]

Hi all.
Firstly apologies for the few new threads and long posts lately. Still in the learning phase of TDIs, DSGs and all the fancy European luxury the VW has to offer. Soon enough I'll be able to return the favour and contribute. I have more of an understanding to standard petrol and turbo 6cyl vehicles.

I have a 2006 Passat 2.0 TDI (yes an old car but coming from Holdens and Fords this is still a step up in luxury and features). As I've only driven the 1 car I don't have anything to compare to so this might be normal or might be something wrong.
I've had the car for around 5-6 weeks now and it's always had a major lag when taking off from a complete stop to the point it feels dangerous crossing intersections or roundabouts.

Next problem is when it reaches around 2500rpm +/- it sounds like it's bogged down. Almost like running on 3cyl but no where near as bad. Most noticeable in 3rd (can't comment much about 5th and 6th as I don't get the rpm high enough on those). 1st doesn't do it but has that lag. 2nd and 4th seem fine and smooth sounding but could just be that it's harder to hear. It still drives smooth with no jerking or anything but just doesn't sound right.
I'm still testing the theory but it seems that gears 1, 3 and 5 have less power than 2 and 4. Gear 2 has the most kick out of all. Strange comparison but as I'm going through the gears it feels the pulling power lacks through those gears then picks up in the others.
When at a steady speed it feels like a knocking type of feeling in the accelerator pedal and left foot resting plate. Hard to tell if it's feedback from something wrong or the tires (brand new tires put on when purchased) but being on different road surfaces (rough noisy road, smooth brand new road, etc) makes no difference.
Coming to a stop just as I'm basically stationary I feel a knocking/grinding feeling in the accelerator. Only happens for a split second. This I have no idea where it's coming from. Dsg? Wheel bearings or something?

First starts in the morning are hit and miss. Sometimes starts basically instantly and other times it takes around 5 seconds.

Lastly I bought an elm odb2 wifi dongle to check for any codes and also see how it ran (max kw, torque, boost, etc). I'm not sure how accurate these are but I've tried dashcommand and another 2 other highly reviewed apps and all 3 showed the following maximums:

Power (kW): 131
Power (hp): 176
Torque (N.m): 463
Boost: (psi): 22


I may very well be wrong but I was under the impression that stock is more like 103kw around 12psi and that much torque would have been the end of the dsg. So I'm thinking it's 1 of 3 things.
1. Odb2 and/or all apps are providing false information
2. Car has had something done by previous owner
3. This is all normal and I'm just proving how little I know about this car.

Other than the above (which with all that sounds terrible) the car has been running nicely and I'm getting around 1000-1100 per tank (a lot of freeway driving). By running nicely I mean no rough idling or bad engine vibrations or any of those obvious indications something is seriously wrong.

When I bought the car it had just had a basic service done (oil and oil filter, not sure on fuel filter, and air filter seems cleanish), as well as a dsg service.

I have spent weeks searching and trying to find the answers to these issues/questions with no luck. Each possibility I found had completely different symptoms with only a slight resemblance to mine.

Hopefully I have provided ample information to work with.

Thanks for any help and advice in advance

Andrew

[Throbbinhood]

OBD isn't going to give you an accurate gauge of power figures. From my understanding, they try to take them from working out the weight of the car, 0-60 times etc and make an estimate. Only true way to know the power figure is to put it on a dyno I believe.

From your economy I'd say your car is running well, I get similar in mine with a mix of hwy/traffic/local driving.

The lag on takeoff is normal with these cars. If you do some googling, you'll see it's common - the dsg takes a second to get up and go. You'll learn to drive with it, I noticed it at first but after a month it's fine and I can drive like everyone else. You'll learn to anticipate and once you let your foot of the brake it'll start to engage and you'll get good go out of it.

The bogging down you mention, does it actually feel like it's bogging down, or just sound like it? When I put the boot in in mine, the engine sound changes and sounds a bit lower pitched. One could seem that this is bogging down, but in turbo diesels when the turbo spools up it combats the sound of the motor/exhaust noise.

Can't help with the knocking, could be a bush somewhere, could be anything really.

As for the starting, are you waiting for the glow plug light to go out?

[kamold]

One thing to note with taking off, and not sure if it applies...

With the Electric Park Brake system set to Auto hold (the default setting, you can turn auto hold off via the button in the console or via the MFD) when you come to a stop, the park brake is automatically engaged.
At this point you can actually remove your foot from the brake and as long as you don't touch the accelerator, the car will be properly braked. This is unlike in a traditional torque converter auto setup where you will start creeping if you take your foot off the brake.

When you put your foot on the accelerator again, the electric park brake is released in concert with the clutches taking up at the bite point which can vary depending if the car is facing up a hill etc. Its effectively doing a hill start for you like you would in a manual.

I find that if you treat the car like an old school auto and quickly take your foot off the foot brake and straight onto the accelerator with a moderate amount of throttle applied, you can trip the EPB system up whereby it seems like it slips to neutral momentarily before taking off.
I've found the solution to this is to come to a complete stop and then remove your foot from the foot brake and let the EPB do its auto hold. Then when you touch the throttle it is ready to do a coordinated disengagement of the park brake and a proper release of the clutches as you move forward.

Have a read of this self study guide if interested:

http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_346.pdf

[D13S3L]

Hi guys thanks for the feedback.

In a way it's good to hear that the obd is wrong which then means more than likely it is stock which then means I'd only have to go to a stage 1 instead of looking at stage 2 which involves hardware upgrades.

Economy wise I'm as happy as a pig in mud. Especially coming from a ford falcon only making 500km a tank and costing around $80-90 to fill.

Also glad the takeoff is normal. Bad habit of putting my foot down more to get moving faster which seems to be doing the opposite for me. Tried on the way home just easing onto the accelerator until it properly engaged then I could give it some more acceleration. Need to find a happy medium with that though as when the turbo finally spools up the headrest tends to slap me in the back of the head. Also tried using the auto hold method and not jumping straight from the brake go accelerator which also seemed to help it not lag as much. Was definitely a good improvement to before.

With the bogging down it definitely sounds like it (every time I go past a barrier I try to replicate it to see if it's the engine or if it's just way the sound is travelling my way). As for feeling like it's bogging down the answer is not exactly. It's still moving and gaining speed but doesn't feel like it's giving 100%. That could just be me and the pull I'm used to from my previous cars. As I did it a few times today I noticed the speed was definitely increasing as quickly as expected, but just didn't feel like it, so once again I'll blame my bad petrol head habits and lack of diesel knowledge. The sound could just be the sheer fact that giving it more throttle and thus more boost is pushing it harder which in return sounds like it's working harder in comparison to just cruising along and it increasing rpm at its own leisure (hope that somewhat makes sense).

The knocking I think I'll leave to the experts instead of picking my own brain over, and have mechanic check it out on my next service due in the next 8 weeks. It hasn't gotten any worse and in fact hadn't shown itself for the past few days until today so no need for too much concern at this stage. Considering my current run with misconceptions on this car it's probably very normal and I'm just not used to it.

Lastly I need to hold my head in shame, and then go and study hard on this car/engine. I was never even aware of the glow plug light until now. That would more than likely explain the problem.

Thank you both for taking the time to educate me on these things. I'm about to take a look at that link as well.
Note to self: read user manual again and focus this time.

Cheers guys


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[Throbbinhood]

No worries mate, all a learning curve. I'm new to it myself, though fortunately have had other diesel's in the past so was expecting the glow plug light.

You are talking about getting a stage1/2 tune before. Where are you looking at getting it tuned and what sort of power are you looking at? And pricing?

[D13S3L]

Still in the early stages of research but from what I've seen so far Malone tuning seems to be getting good reviews. I think they have 4 stages of tunes. As I was thinking perhaps a stage 1 was previously done to my car based on the false odb readings I was thinking I'd need stage 2. But now stage 1 might be suffice. Plus also a DSG tune. Speaking with one of Malone timing's reps this morning and either I can buy the Flashzilla v2 unit and then have them tune directly or I can go to 3Bar here in Melbourne who run Malone tunes. Just waiting on a reply with pricing and some more info.
Stage 1 should apparently push it to around 130kw.
From what they have said, a tune to push it to 200hp is possible without having to upgrade any hardware. Not sure if this is their stage 1.5 or stage 2 tune.
In the meantime I've been also searching around for others in my area who can do tdi and DSG. APR is another but I've seen mixed results/reviews on them. Another highly recommend is HSP I think it's called but no one locally does their tunes.

Once I've heard back from Malone I'll reply here with prices and info they provide.


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[transporterq]

Morning, Have a 2007 TDI Passat, love the car, but yes, it is different to drive to a petrol, I let mine start to roll from a start before I slowly start to hit the accelerator, I have fitted a APR exhaust, from after the cat, and cold air intake and had Miro here in Adelaide did a performance tune, difference in the car is like day and night, seem to be getting around 960 out of the tank than the 1000 that I used to get, believe it is because I put my foot down a lot more now. As for the gearbox, you may need to check that the car has had all of the computer upgrades completed, mine started to give me trouble, took it to a different VW dealership to discover not one upgrade had been done. Since having the tune done, the gearbox also seems to work better, but it will still jerks about trying to reverse up an incline. Peter.

[D13S3L]

Throbbinhood:
Just heard back from Malone and this is what I got in regards to pricing:
"A stage 2 tune should put you near the 200HP mark. You're running a BMR motor right? 16V variation that's rated at 170HP. I can dig up logs and a dyno graph on an Australia car if that's the case.

The initial ECU tune will run you $349. A DSG tune will run $299, you shouldn't have clutch issues if sticking to the stock turbo. We typically charge $50 for minor adjustments such as deletes and $80 for mapping adjustments. Given the time zone difference it'd be easiest to do the ECU flashing with a flashzilla V2."

At about AU$1000 for the 'Flashzilla V2', a stage 2 tune and DSG tune it seems fairly reasonable I think.

transporterq:
Thanks for your input. It's good to hear from someone that's done some mods I'm looking into so I can see if it's worth the money/effort. I've been quoted around $1100 for the APR cat back kit fitted. Does that sound about right to you? I'm wondering if it's worth trying to source the kit and fitting myself. Also looking to see if there are any other options available. How does it sound? I've heard a few modded diesels and they can sound tough. But I've also heard a few exhausts on Passats and they sound terrible. None were APR though.
What cold air intake do you have? I've only come across the k&n kit and apparently APR make one but couldn't find any others. K&n priced at $600-$750 which seems a bit steep.
That small loss in economy would be worth it for the gain in performance.
I did read somewhere that there were some updates to the software which fixed some issues. Don't suppose you have an idea what the deal shop charge for these updates?
I unfortunately have a shocking inclined driveway which I have to reverse out of. I need to just get the car moving and not stop or it jerks like a b****.
As for the taking off in first, either the car is getting used to me or I'm getting used to it as lately it's been taking off ok. Been using auto hold too which seems to have helped.
Now just need to figure out that annoying knocking noise through the footwell area.
Also just started noticing the left passenger wheel making a sort of knocking sound over bumps. Nice long list of possibilities from loose brake pads to sway bars, racks, slam panels, etc. another one for the mechanic to figure out I think. Only noticed it yesterday when I had the windows down going down a bumpy road near work.


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[transporterq]

Evening,
I brought my APR exhaust off eBay a few years back, it was ex-display stock, paid $100 plus freight from Queensland to Adelaide, that's when i found out the APR comes in three sections, i was missing the straight pipe section under the middle of the car. still by the time I had it fitted, had the place make up a S/S pipe to fit from after the cat, it costed me around $480, would need to check the APR website to find their current costing, their cold air intake used to be around $600, mine, which is an APR one, costed around $350, group buy, but you do need the extra bracket to bolt it onto the front panel. My exhaust has a slightly more deeper sound, more noticeable out side of the car than in it. There was not a lot of difference in the performance until I had the tune done, think it was about 3 years ago, might be more and was around $1200, believe they are cheaper now.
As far as the computer upgrades are worth, the VW did not charge for the upgrade, just for the time, upgrade should have been done before as the car was being serviced, think it ending up costing me around $100.
I reverse my car into my garage, little incline into it, since the tune was done, it does not jerk as badly, most days not at all, just seems to have it's moments.
Peter.

[transporterq]

Added some pictures showing the APR cold air intake fitted and the exhaust, links back to when I placed an add to sell the car, no buyers, so i have just kept it, nothing wrong with it and still enjoy pulling up on the inside lane at traffic lights.
Also has a Viezu Performance tune on it.
Nearly forgot, had my father make up a bracket to help hold the APR air cleaner in place at the back of it, was moving around a lot, help to secure it in place.
http://i1111.photobucket.com/albums/...pshmvxwzyr.jpg
http://i1111.photobucket.com/albums/...3102011001.jpg