Water Injection Setup for Golf R. No more BS please

[parso_rex]

So anyway now that we've got all that out of our system............"Off road use only"

With the water meth setups I'd probably never tune one on say a customers car unless they were quite determined to have one - reason being (and I guess that tuner thing mentioned above does show) is that if the setup is not done correctly OR if you have tuned the car so it can only run with Meth/water then what happens when the tank is empty ?. Potentially there is a real risk of major engine damage if the ECU can't pull enough timing out to protect itself and how then do you prove it was empty when the owner comes limping back to the workshop pretending they have done nothing wrong. To some extent this also applies to tunes on 98 but you can factor that in pretty easily as long as you don't go crazy.
I will do it on my own car of course because I can only blame myself should something go wrong but I also do monitor things pretty much all the time (Polar works very well). The benefits of a proper setup are very real, a fact no one can deny so it really depends on what you are after.

Hmm many cars do have wiper/water spray bottles located in the boot from factory which is indeed part of the passenger area but obviously they aren't plumbed into the inlet manifold.

[Tarmac]

More useful comments there Parso. You are correct in regards to proper tuning. Especially if Methanol is going to be used. Water is not so bad if you run out. I guess thats why i have a float level sensor switch 1 inch off the bottom of the tank, so i am warned with a big flashing light when it is getting low. I really like this idea.
Ive actually found a bunch of information regarding fail safe options for tuning. As you know if the ECU measures to much Knock Retard it will pull timing out, but only so much. What you can actually do is copy these tables and create a new "WHAT IF" scenario where if the car measures to much KR it will pull a huge amount of timing out (set by yourself in the tune). I guess this is the beauty of custom/bespoke (whatever you want to call it) tuning over flashing and emailing tunes. You can do some pretty cool stuff and there is some pretty smart people out there like yourself that can do these sorts of things.

[shinygti]

Lol guy go advise you own workshops and customer that love being ripped off! Love to see just how legal your R really is in terms of emissions and everything else that has been done.
You have said your bit now so just leave it, if you don't agree with what is done that's fine nobody is asking you to do it to your car. Everyone has different things they want to do and just cos its not the way you do it dose not make it wrong!

[Guy_H]

Shiny, you can do what ever you like to your Golf R, I don't really care - but as long as everyone understands the implications of illegal modification - that's less people getting defected.

Ben & Mark, those are excellent points on what happens when the system fails. I did a heap of research into this a year ago & discussed it with our local tuning pro's & in depth with the APR engineers.

Unfortunately it all came do to a millisecond of water or mix interruption at WOT means a dead or damaged engine, and none of the "early warning" or "failsafe" options I looked into at the time could help prevent that happening. There have been many cases reported from South Africa, where fuel quality & altitude have a lot of people using these systems - and have killed engines (Talking Golfs & S3's now).

One of our partners here in Brisbane who is a jap specialist tuner has shown me over the past couple of years several dead EVO motors from WM tuning & mishaps, and even had a lovely EVO 9 where someone accidentally filled an under bonnet tank with Methanol, connected it to their manifold & ended up with a very nasty fire which wrote the car off.

Now the fire case was pure bad design - but a simple blown hose, or bad hose clamp could cause that - and interrupt supply, fine at cruising speed probably, but the case of damage at WOT is what really worries me, and I know there have already been several VW's killed because of it (so the ECU can't pull it up in time).

[Tarmac]

Guy in all fairness. You went way off topic, i really didnt want this thread to turn into a whose right and whos wrong. I can find illegal things on your car too, but i dont give a crap. Lets please keep this on the the benefits of this setup.

Ok so, i think it comes down to who's tuning it and what the owner of the vehicle is after. There are massive benefits that are safe from using a water injection setup. As everyones knows, these cars running a lot of boost cause a lot of heat. Having cooler inlet temp and cylinder chamber temps is nothing but a good thing.

I know for a fact i can tune my car to a potential i am happy with using water injection and if it were to fail the car will still run perfectly and no damage would be done. If other tuners or car owners arent sure about this then basically thats there problem. I wont go more into how this all works as i would be giving technical secrets away.

Having talked about tuning, in actual fact you can run this setup with zero tuning. You will get more consistency on repeated power runs. Much the same as using stock intercoolers or even after market intercoolers as heat soak settles in and therefore timing is pulled resulting in less power.

Best example was at the BPS Autos dyno day where several cars with the same setup but some with a stock intercooler and some with a upgraded intercooler. The guys with the upgraded intercooler got very consistent runs. The guys with the OEM intercooler made 2-3kw less power every run (everyone was given 3 power runs). This is along the same lines.
PS this is info few people that DONT know about these things. This isnt a lesson for people that know it all already.

If anyone has any technical questions regarding this please ask away and or PM me, ill be happy to help.

[VWindahouse]

Amazing setup there Ben! Really top notch work. Have you had a look into E85 at all. I hear bang for buck there is nothing like it at your stage of tune and set up. And it rates even safer than meth for detonation and there's no risk of mixture starvation if something goes wrong. Just have to upgrade your fuel system, give it to James for a few hours and Bob's your uncle

[Tweeked]

I imagine that if this was a legal modification in Qld then it would be offered more by tuners.... this science is not new and has been used for many decades especially in aviation. An increase in air density supplied by water/meth injection = more power...
I hope you get your approval and please post your compliance, then you can boast to the world. Good luck.

[Tim]

Now with insurance, most insurance companies we deal with will insure a car with "legal" modifications.
Have an accident with a water tank in the back of your car hooked to the inlet & see what your insurance company thinks of that.

There are insurance companies that will insure illegal mods so long as you disclose them.

Now I have only touched on the technicalities & legalities of having this in a road car - we have not addressed the implications on the engine in the case of a blocked nozzle or a pump failure. That is an interesting discussion in itself.

Modern water injection systems are quite advanced and have failsafes integrated into them. You should look into them as there is plenty of power to be made.

Now you may ask why am I so "involved" in this?

Our group (Australian & NZ dealers) that we are responsible for, collectively modifies over 1000 vehicles a year. It is our business to advise our customers & our dealers on the law & protect their interests. This is not a hobby or part time business, and we treat it seriously. We have all our cars mod plated & are well versed with the procedures & laws, right from a simple stage 1 upgrade, high flow catalysts, open airboxes, brake & suspension updates - right through to fitting turbo & superchargers to normally aspirated cars.

Now that you have finished patting yourself on the back.
Do you mean you have all of your own personal cars mod plated? Or all APR customers nation wide as well?
Do your exhausts change the number and position of catalytic converters in the system? Cos thats technically not legal.
Open airboxes are legal so long as the filter is not oiled. In fact some cars come with them like the FPV GT

I dont see why you feel the need to poo poo on everyone elses threads when they build something that is impressive. Especially when you are scare mongering with misinformation. If you dont approve of something just shut it.

For the record if anyone is worried about the flammability. There is no issue unless you mix your own.
Running straight water or commercially available products like boost juice which are carefully premixed is quite safe

You can see here someone trying to light some boost juice
Flammability of boost juice - YouTube


Anyways Tarmac. Its good to see people pushing the boundaries and not just taking the same route as all the other lemmings out there.
Forums are for sharing information and id hate to see people stop sharing due to 1 or 2 wankers raining on the parade

[Tarmac]

Thanks for your information and comments Tim. I was almost at the point where i thought there isnt any point sharing things on forums anymore.

Anyway, even if you mix your own its not flammable if there is less than 50% methanol. But like you said, boost juice which is readily available is an excellent safe product.

Im very happy with my water bottle in the boot. The intake temps are insanely low compared with not having it. Its really impressive. On monday i will know exactly how much timing can be dialed in with using water only. I will report back here for everyone that is interested.

Cheers

[Scarlet]

Far out Guy. Stop being a f00ken knob man! Why do you feel the need to try and discredit Ben and what he has accomplished here? The way you are acting is not professional at all and not doing any favours to your rep personally or that of the product you represent. Ben has a reputation I'm sure he wants to uphold being an up and coming Tuner, hence he's been very diplomatic with you. I on the other hand do not. So I think I speak for a lot of people here when I say "Grow a pair, apologize then sod off!"


Oh, and it seems your very concerned about the legality of this mod. Maybe you should spend some more time worrying about your own car. Last I knew that number plate isn't legal......



[/rant]