Throttle Bodies

[GoLfMan]

I've got to say Josh, if you reckon it's that easy to make 200hp from a NA 16V, everyone would be doing it incl. you.

It's much harder than you think..

no $hit its hard, and who says i wont do it, i may be a bit 'green' now but we all start somewhere, you were at this stage once too.

i think you misread my statement, of course its hard but its easily achievable as in you can easily achieve those figures with the right mods, its not like the engine isnt capable of it, just like V8's can easily achieve 800hp are we getting the picture yet???
As i said look at Preens engine, the amount of work into it and its going to be putting out circa 200hp, a good NA engine takes much more skill to build than a cheap turbo set up, wheres the sense of achievement in wacking on a hair dryer and winding up the boost?

Valvers engine that has been built specifically for big power turbo output takes skill, as do big power turbo 6's and 8's.

look at the first M3! 2.3L 4cyl quad throttle bodies, well designed engine and some crazy power, in race trim Jim Richards one was putting out 250kws!

its ok, have a crack mate i dont explain myself well sometimes
hopefully this time my statements will not be misconstrued.

this is not to be taken as an attack on anyone either, as this is a discussion and im just clearing up my point of view!!!

[Jarred]

lif you want ITB's for the sounds and "cool" factor, which is a good enough reason (if you've got the cash) you may as well get bike carbs an 8V!

really. bike carbs even with a custom manifold, will be a hell of alot cheaper than ITB's + ECU + tuning. Also about half as much as (brand new) twin DCOE's.

Ultimately twin DCOE's aren't the most effective/effiecient way of making power, but shure, they sound good!

IMO (and correct me if my figures are wrong, Tim) but and 2.0L 8V with bike carbs (quad 40mm, sim to twin 40mm DCOE) with a decent cam (around the 276 region) a bit of head work, (read: more flow) and a few other bits and pieces, exhaust etc. and a proper tuning, and you could be looking at 130kw @ flywheel.

140HP in a 900(or less) kg car, for street purposes (mainly) perfect. you don't need more than that.

The money you save over buying a 16V and ITB, ECU etc, you can spend on actually getting better parts for an 8V (pistons, rods, machine work etc) (that's where the extra 20 or so kw come in)

Anyways, that's just my opinion. My next petrol engine will be pretty similar, except k-jet, "stage 1" headwork, lightened flywheel, 276 cam, balanced bottom and prolly a 1.8. I'm hoping for 100HP. That'll be enough for me

[GoLfMan]

I'm hoping for 100HP. That'll be enough for me

the stock 2L put out 100hp and the 1.8 GTi engines put out 100hp why not get a 2L or a GTi engine

[Jarred]

EDIT: I'm getting confused with my HP and KW.
I want about 100kw (fly), which is pretty moderate estimate. could get a bit more.

[Oneofthegreats]

IMO (and correct me if my figures are wrong, Tim) but and 2.0L 8V with bike carbs (quad 40mm, sim to twin 40mm DCOE) with a decent cam (around the 276 region) a bit of head work, (read: more flow) and a few other bits and pieces, exhaust etc. and a proper tuning, and you could be looking at 130kw @ flywheel.

140HP in a 900(or less) kg car, for street purposes (mainly) perfect. you don't need more than that.

My next petrol engine will be pretty similar, except k-jet, "stage 1" headwork, lightened flywheel, 276 cam, balanced bottom and prolly a 1.8. I'm hoping for 100HP. That'll be enough for me

I reckon to make 130 engine kw's, you'd need a 2L with at least 11+:1 CR, very good head work, you may even need a worked over cross flow ABA head to achieve the flow number's required, twin 45's & a big cam. Something over 288. 4-1 race header's with around 1 3/4"primary's & a full 2.25+" system.
That should see you to 180hp, but it won't play nice on the street.

I spoke with a bloke in the state's & he runs a Audi 2L with high compresion, solid lifter head, 306° cam in a car that weigh's 1600lbs (800kg's full weight) & runs 14.0's with 1.8 60fts!

Also take into account that a 3dr mk1 is roughly 850kg's dry. Then put fuel in it & yourself & see how light it is. It's not the 110hp in a 800kg car anymore.
When I weighed my 5dr beater with half a tank of fuel & me in it it was 1000kg's dead even, so 800kg's full weight is some pretty impressive number's.

Not all GTI engine's produce 100+hp either. Depend's on the engine code, as there aren't that many that make the full 112hp, nor have the compression.

With the mod's made to my old beater engine & the MPH it ran in the GTI full weight it's making roughly 105whp. A ET/HP calculator reckon's 143hp! But I don't think so. I'm thinking maybe 125hp.
Not bad with basic mod's & part's, but also not very impressive IMO.
I'll take you for a spin when I get it going & I can garantee you'll still want heaps more.
Once the auto is fitted I may fit a turbo later in the year.

Josh, I forgot to add I was talking about Valver's NA ABF.

I'm more of a street/race engine person, use the car as much as possible & not once a month.
Don't get me wrong, I love High HP NA low capacity engine's but then I don't because they aren't ideal street engine's & in most case are normally pig's to drive with massive cam's & idle's at 1300+rpm , that's why FI is a better option.
I'd have a mild turbo'd 8V over a berg racer engine anyday.

I understand that some think it's easy with a turbo, but it's not that easy. You still need to find the right part's, the right combination, the right turbo. It's even more of a balancing act. A few degree's out on the timing & you've got some rod's & piston's that are nothing more than paper weight's.

It's just as involving, but when someone else has done it, it does make it easy to copy.

[GoLfMan]

i agree a highly strung NA around the street wouldnt be fun to drive in heavy traffic, thats why V8's are so much better to tune for power, minimal money on mods and you get massive gains and its still easy to live with!!

[Valver.]

Valvers engine that has been built specifically for big power turbo output

Just for the record, the ABF block in the white car is pretty much standard. It just has fresh parts, ARP bolts and a decompression plate.

TBH, I've built it to see how much boost it'll take before blowing up. It's actually RPMs that kill a 16v anyway; they seem to take a lot of boost for a long time if they're kept around a 7k rev limit

This is one of the other reasons it costs so much to build a nice ITB'd engine: the cams you need to actually use all that extra intake capacity demand so many revs, and you can't get much more than 7.5k out of a stock bottom end, and a bit over 8k revs from hydraulic lifters.

You also need to rev high enough to actually get a decent power band. If you didn't rev, you'd want a 7spd 'box!

There are huge improvements to made outside of the engine anyway. Putting a 3.94:1 final drive in a 16v 020 (and most 02As) feels like you've got another 30hp and your flywheel has shed half its weight. You can't really do this in a big boost engine as the torque will light up all the gears - you have to keep the longer ratios so it comes on a bit more lazily (unless have AWD of course). Being able to build a gearbox with taller 1st and 2nd, and then tighter stacked 3, 4, 5, 6 would be the best of both worlds, but that would be $15,000.

As Preen says earlier, getting near 200hp is great fun a Mk1 anyway I've only turbo'd mine out of curiousity - if the truth be known, it'll be a slower car in a lot of areas due to the lower compression, gearing, and the lag!

[Valver.]

P.S. A lot of the US and UK cars that apparently knock on 200hp with an $800 head job and KR cams need to remember that the early 16v power-up from Oettinger etc (with warm cams, great heads, and very nice exhausts) were only rated at around 175-180hp! The 190hp versions had 276 cams. I'd be more inclined to believe an engine dyno worth a few hundred grand than some bloke in a shed apparently getting a 40hp+ increase from a very poorely designed engine (!).

[GoLfMan]

bugger i was wrong again! ahh well *crawls back inside hole*

your car will be an absolute weapon on boost, but dont get caught in the wrong gear and off boost! should be sweet to see how it goes with the turbo set up

[velly_16v_cab]

P.S. A lot of the US and UK cars that apparently knock on 200hp with an $800 head job and KR cams need to remember that the early 16v power-up from Oettinger etc (with warm cams, great heads, and very nice exhausts) were only rated at around 175-180hp! The 190hp versions had 276 cams. I'd be more inclined to believe an engine dyno worth a few hundred grand than some bloke in a shed apparently getting a 40hp+ increase from a very poorely designed engine (!).

coming from the uk and being a 16v lover i can say yes there is a load of 16v's pushing out 180 BHP @ fly.
i have a mate who has built 2 2.0 16v's which both run over 185bhp and is also building a 2.1 (another mates 2.1 on twin 48's -pushed out over 200bhp)

it can be done...ive seen it