Post APR 6hr trial complications

[Corey_R]

I note now that APR do offer a return to stock option for warranty purposes but at an additonal yearly premium so at least they do acknowledge it could be of concern to some.

The return to stock option is for newer VAG cars which do not offer switching between "stock" and the APR tuned. For example the Golf R and current Audi S3/TT-S etc.

It's different to what's being discussed in this thread. As turboveedubb has a Jetta which supports switching, had he gone ahead and was concerned about dealer servicing etc, he would only need to turn back to "stock" and enable the security lock out (included in the purchase), and the dealer would be unaware of the tune being present.


I do believe that there is a communication issue for APR to address here though. As has been noted, this trial won't stop any of the other tuners who flash the car directly from doing so, nor would it stop a dealer. But times have changed since the trial program was developed and with newer alternatives such as the Bluefin style devices, which read the ECU and expect a completely stock tune to then send to a server and receive back an updated ECU tune, issues such as this occur. There is obviously at least one APR dealer who isn't aware of these alternatives and the implications involved.

I'm glad turboveedubb's problem has been resolved though.

Edit: Sorry h100vw, I started typing my post before you closed this thread. I hope you're ok with my reply - if not, delete it. Cheers.

[h100vw]

No worries Corey.

I have re-opened the thread for Arin to respond to the questions asked earlier.

I'd much prefer that only he replies.

Gavin

[turboveedubb]

I have re-opened the thread for Arin to respond to the questions asked earlier.

I'd much prefer that only he replies.

Sorry to be a noob.... but... who is Arin?
I've seen a few posts from him on a few other forums... but um...

[Corey_R]

Arin is Arin@APR. He's an APR USA employee.
I don't spend enough time on the USA forums to know specifically what his function in the company is, but I know he spends a lot of time on forums answering peoples questions, announcing new products etc. He's also got a few project cars himself. And I do remember he was the person who posted the "Stage 4 GTI development videos" which showed some seriously unbelievable acceleration... but I never saw the conclusion to that!

[Arin@APR]

I just spent about 1 hour writing a reply to every question on here only to have the browser crash when I submit my reply.

I seriously want to throw up.


I apologize for my ****ty reply now.



Here is our EMCS patent:
Enhanced module chipping system - Google Patent Search

Is stock mode the same calibration that came with the car

yes

Is the car running the same calibration that came with the car when the trial is over

yes

Why can't some tuners write over APR software when I get trial software

Because they are not doing it correctly.

We can write over anyones code.

VW can write over anyones code.

These guys are just trying to extract the calibration data so they can mess with the maps. This is dangerous! You should alway start tuning with a fully stock binary.

When an APR trial finishes you are running the same calibration that came with your car, not an APR version or recreation of it. The reason some tuners can't do it is because the ECU is encrypted so no one can steal our program switching technology. When they try to pull out the code, it makes no sense to them.

The code will not appear or run any differently to any VW/Audi dealership scanning or logging the car.


What if I still want to use these tuners?

Go to an APR dealer. Select stage 1 software. When giving the option to select programs, only choose stock. This will flash the ECU w/o encryption.

Were the dealers lying to me?

No. They just didn't understand the question. This computer ecu stuff is pretty hard to explain sometimes. People don't know what a full binary is, calibration sectors, etc etc. What they told you all along is true. APR Stock mode and APR after trial software is the 100% exact same calibration, bit for bit, that came with your ECU when you bought the car or were last flashed by VW.



sorry for the short reply but after my browser dying, I'm tired. lol.


Email me if you have any problems: aahnell@goapr.com

Thanks!


-Arin

[parso_rex]

Arin,
If I replace the APR code stored in the external flash area of the ECU with the code that VW supply - the one that came on the car, it will not start. If what you say was true this would not be the case ?
I think the confusion arises when you use the term calibration. The APR stock maps may contain the same data but the whole chunk of data located in the external flash area is not the same. The Data is different, its checksum will be different and so on. This is fact.
Of course you also have to modify at least one of the other memory locations to point things in the correct place and for your ECMS. Why should another company have to correct your alterations here ??

Sorry man its not a level playing field when you try and grey out the areas to confuse people. I'd be concentrating on the tunes them selves. They are good so I just don't understand why the Dark art approach. All you need is disclosure about what really takes place and its not a problem.
This is just going to keep coming back again and again

Cheers

Mark

[Arin@APR]

Arin,
If I replace the APR code stored in the external flash area of the ECU with the code that VW supply - the one that came on the car, it will not start. If what you say was true this would not be the case ?
I think the confusion arises when you use the term calibration. The APR stock maps may contain the same data but the whole chunk of data located in the external flash area is not the same. The Data is different, its checksum will be different and so on. This is fact.
Of course you also have to modify at least one of the other memory locations to point things in the correct place and for your ECMS. Why should another company have to correct your alterations here ??

Sorry man its not a level playing field when you try and grey out the areas to confuse people. I'd be concentrating on the tunes them selves. They are good so I just don't understand why the Dark art approach. All you need is disclosure about what really takes place and its not a problem.
This is just going to keep coming back again and again

Cheers

Mark

Mark,

With all due respect, that's silly. We are not doing anything that cannot be undone. VW can write over our changes and so can many of our competitors. Do you honestly feel we need to issue a disclaimer because there may or may not be someone we don't know who may or may not be able to properly recalibrate the ECU after we have calibrated the ECU?

If that's the case, where does it end? Where do you draw the line?

Example:

APR Intake Disclosure
Please be advised, after installing this intake, if you chose to have another tuner install their own intake, they may or may not be able to do so if they do not own the tools necessary for a proper install.

[parso_rex]

VW can write over it sometimes but not all the time. They can because they choose to rewrite all three (or two) areas of the ECU to fix any possibility of corruption that might be in there for whatever reason. They don't have too though but its a smart way of covering everything.
The competitors do it because they have too and they usually use the same methods as yourselves, again though - they dont have too when tuning or as you might say calibrating the ECU. They do it solely to prevent copying or viewing of the data. Thats fair enough but you've corrupted another area of the ECU in the process and this area is just not required to be modified when retuning a car. So theres the issue. Every other unsupported Euro brand is doing it all the wrong way I guess too .
Thats it for me on this one

cheers

[turboveedubb]

Hi Arin,

Thanks for joining the forum and answering our questions.

Thank you for shedding some light on some of the issues I've been having in recent time and I'm glad that my car is back to original tune now.

I willingly and freely admit that my comprehension of ECU tuning is very low and thus I may seem to use very simple terms at times.
(Which is also why I'm willing to pay someone else who know what they're doing to tune it for me.)

I understand that APR as a group have done extensive research and development into this area and hold numerous patents to prove it.

I understand perfectly why there is an encryption on your own proprietary data, as it's something APR has spent lots of time, money and staff hours on developing.

I do however have an issue with the way some simple and direct questions are answered.

When I rang APR Australia, and spoke to *****, a technician at APR Australia, (I'll let you know the name if you PM me) and asked a simple and direct question of:
"After the 6hr trial, is there still any dormant APR software left on my ECU?"
I was provided the straight forward answer of:
"No, after 6 hours the software disappears off your ECU and is all back to stock"
Which you have confirmed is incorrect.

I do admit, from an experienced person's perspective, my other question of:
'How do I get my car back to stock?' may be ambiguous as you have mentioned that the stock calibration after the trial is VW's original calibration which is why I received the answer of 'stock is stock'.
But you've got to apply some common sense and ask yourself 'what is this 'noob' trying to say by asking that question?'
I get asked all sorts of simple (and ridiculous) sounding questions everyday by my patients. But after asking myself the above question and seeking further clarification we get to a happy end point almost all the time.

The products that APR have developed are of a high quality and high techinical proficiency. This is what the 6hr APR Stage 1 trial has demonstrated to me.
I have no reservations about recommending people try out the APR tune for themselves.

I apologise if anyone's personal or business reputation has taken a hit as a result of the existence of this thread but although we are professionals in our chosen fields, we are the ones who interact with customers and potential customers and it is through these interactions that certain people/companies receive positive feedback, build a good reputation and receive referrals.

A good product needs good customer service to become a great product.

[Transporter]

Thread is now closed. Tuners can solve their problems why they can't re flash sometimes via PM's or emails.