Golf R - APR Stage II+

[Corey_R]

Hey DeanCorp.
1) Good question. I'm not sure that Fab_R did any runs pre-Stage I. I'm acquring a GTech Pro soon, and so we'll have a device to perform real-world before and after tests rather than relying on these dyno operators who seem to clearly have little knowledge of what they're doing.
2) Whilst I agree that it's possible to get some downpipes for less than $1495, the two name brands who have Golf R downpipes are both more than this. They also both state requiring Stage II software (meaning even if your SI > SII upgrade is included in the cost of the pipe, you still need SI). I know that 42DD have a downpipe which comes in less than $1495 - however, a member attempted to buy one yesterday, and I believe there is now a hold up on whether it will actually fit the Golf R (or S3) due to the prop shaft not present on the GTI (Pirelli). Also, even they say that you won't be able to use their downpipe without errors without a Stage II tune - so I don't consider a downpipe without a tune to be a valid mode of operation.
3) GIAC are a good brand man, I've no issue with them. My only comment would be I wish they spent more time supporting the Australian community (via forums and the like) and had more of a local physical presence. But then, that is one of the reasons for the price differences hey
4) GIAC are also a USA company and use an American branded dynamometer
5) Sorry, you may have misunderstood what I wrote, or I may have failed to convey my intended message properly. I didn't mean to make any comment about whether a Pirelli or a R is quicker or better or not. My comment was to say that "where" the gains are in the rev range on the GTI Pirelli and R (and S3 for that matter, since they're all the same engine, and most importantly, K04 turbo) is the same, and yet distinctly different to where the gains in the rev range are on the "standard" GTI's (both K03 TFSI and TSI). GIAC's dyno plots from their site also support that comment (no surprise, it's a basic characteristic difference between the K03 and K04).

[Ideo]

Just a quick note. I drove an 8L A3 1.8t with a APR chip.

Then I drove an 8L S3 with Stg 1 chip.

The A3, despite being down on power and slower felt quicker because the way the K03 delivers the power. The S3 was much faster and had more power but was also more laggy.

Same story with an 8P A3 2.0t and an 8P S3. The A3 felt fast post chip, even though the S3 was faster.

I don't see how there would be any difference between the S3 and the Golf R/GTI in this matter.

[VW Central]

Hey DeanCorp.
1) Good question. I'm not sure that Fab_R did any runs pre-Stage I. I'm acquring a GTech Pro soon, and so we'll have a device to perform real-world before and after tests rather than relying on these dyno operators who seem to clearly have little knowledge of what they're doing.
2) Whilst I agree that it's possible to get some downpipes for less than $1495, the two name brands who have Golf R downpipes are both more than this. They also both state requiring Stage II software (meaning even if your SI > SII upgrade is included in the cost of the pipe, you still need SI). I know that 42DD have a downpipe which comes in less than $1495 - however, a member attempted to buy one yesterday, and I believe there is now a hold up on whether it will actually fit the Golf R (or S3) due to the prop shaft not present on the GTI (Pirelli). Also, even they say that you won't be able to use their downpipe without errors without a Stage II tune - so I don't consider a downpipe without a tune to be a valid mode of operation.
3) GIAC are a good brand man, I've no issue with them. My only comment would be I wish they spent more time supporting the Australian community (via forums and the like) and had more of a local physical presence. But then, that is one of the reasons for the price differences hey
4) GIAC are also a USA company and use an American branded dynamometer
5) Sorry, you may have misunderstood what I wrote, or I may have failed to convey my intended message properly. I didn't mean to make any comment about whether a Pirelli or a R is quicker or better or not. My comment was to say that "where" the gains are in the rev range on the GTI Pirelli and R (and S3 for that matter, since they're all the same engine, and most importantly, K04 turbo) is the same, and yet distinctly different to where the gains in the rev range are on the "standard" GTI's (both K03 TFSI and TSI). GIAC's dyno plots from their site also support that comment (no surprise, it's a basic characteristic difference between the K03 and K04).

Hi Corey_R,

1.)
2.) A downpipe without software will still remove some restriction from the exhaust setup giving the car more power. I am sure there are other exhausts that can be had for $1495 or less.
3.) In reality, I/we don't pay them to advertise. We pay them to tune and to get the most power and a comfortable ride.
4.) I was saying in regards to the APR dyno figure on their site. I am aware that GIAC is US based too
5.) Yeah that makes sense, I guess it was just a miscommunication.

Cheers.

[Corey_R]

2) You'd be surprised. There really isn't much available to Australia for the Golf R/S3 in exhausts. We had this discussion in one of the Golf R threads a while back (around the time APR announced their full R exhaust). A whole bunch of products were suggested by various members. Milltek and APR came out around the same after you took into account all the costs. Some of the other brands (mostly european that most people had never heard of) turned out to be even more expensive than Milltek and APR. Some of the other more common names (Remus for example) only had silencers and not downpipes/cats. Then there were some asian brands that looked and sounded (written description) like rubbish. 42 Draft Designs seems seemed the most promising, yet it doesn't appear compatible with the R. Milltek won't sell downpipe only. Basically leaving APR downpipe only, Milltek full exhaust, or local exhaust shop for a custom exhaust as the only options. But still... as most people know - you still need to do something to stop the CEL and engine errors. So unless you're going to do something dodgy like remove sensors, you need a Stage II tune, and not even the dodgiest of backwater exhaust shops is going to make you a legal exhaust with high-flo cat for the change you have from a Stage II GIAC tune (and obviously the APR Stage I costs $1495, so you have no change to start with).

3) True, but you can hardly complain that people talk about Sony Blu-ray players more than they talk about Oppo Blu-ray players, even if Oppo is far superior to Sony, when Oppo ain't out there getting the word out and answering peoples questions (use any one of the thousands of other examples that can fit there).

4) Yeah, I understand, but GIAC also have Dyno figures on their site which also needs the same appreciation/consideration made.

[dave_r]

Corey, I don't take any offence to any of this. My commentary is based on the fact that people are highly vocal on the impact of the stage 1 tune. From my previous experience, I do not see this impact. That is my view and how I arrive at the bang for buck comment. If a trial period was available on the R, I suspect that I may not have proceeded based on seat of the pants feel vs the expected improvement based on forum comments and so forth.

Anyway moving on in a constructive manner, I have been offered the use of a "vbox" which I'm led to believe is the same device used by Motor mag to measure performance. I will be follow up this offer next week when I return from holidays. If logistically possible, I'll get Fab out with me and a stock DSG R to come back with a fair comparison however finding a private road to perform repeated measurements might be a big ask. To come away with some valid results, quite a number of runs would need to be done IMO. 0-100 isn't the only item we should focus on, some sort of ingear comparison say 60-100 or 80-120 is of far more interest to me.

I'll let you guys know what happens.

[Corey_R]

Sounds like a good way to proceed Dave

[REXman]

Hi dave.

I feel a bit upset that you are not experiencing the same level of satisfaction that others, including myself, are experiencing with Stage I tunes. But your conclusion is an obvious conclusion in my view. Stage II+ gives you more performance than Stage I.... of course it does - that's a given.

But Dave_R is a customer, who has had some background in tuning a variety of cars, and can positively identify that the Golf R APR tune is simply not giving the claimed results of 51 flywheel kilowatts.

I also think and have heard many a time, that the bulk of the performance gains from the APR engine upgrades are to come from the STG 1. The extra front pipe and stg 2 tune are supposed to only give another 12Kws or there a bouts?

So if the bulk of the STG 2 upgrade (the STG 1 tune) doesn't feel like much to Dave, I doubt how then a front pipe is going to blow his socks off when it should only yield another few kilowatts?

[Corey_R]

But Dave_R is a customer, who has had some background in tuning a variety of cars, and can positively identify that the Golf R APR tune is simply not giving the claimed results of 51 flywheel kilowatts.

Maybe he can, maybe he can't. I too have experience in a variety of tuned cars, including VW's I've owned, and yet I still 100% stand by my comments that my Stage I Polo GTI feels faster than the Golf R. As has anyone that's been in it. But the reality is that the Golf R wipes the floor with it. It just doesn't feel like it does. We're always told here that the "butt-on-seat-meter" is not a valid measurement - and rightly so.
Particularly in this case, Dave_R had first sampled Fab_R's Stage II+ (with full exhaust, intake, intercooler, fuel pump etc) first. Whilst those things don't necessarily give large increases in peak killerwasps, they do widen the power bands greatly - which is where the bulk of Dave_R's complains come from - the fact that he doesn't feel like the Stage I is doing anything below 4500rpm.

Compare this to the comments from customers (and even VW sales guys, hehe) who have gone from Stock to Stage I, without first trying Stage II. They have all been positive. Where people have actually provided real world performance measurements - they've also been undeniably positive!

Dave_R has already said (his last post) that he is acquring a VBox so he can do some real-world tests and determine whether he has in fact got the performance increase or not. I think this is a great idea.

I also think and have heard many a time, that the bulk of the performance gains from the APR engine upgrades are to come from the STG 1. The extra front pipe and stg 2 tune are supposed to only give another 12Kws or there a bouts?

So if the bulk of the STG 2 upgrade (the STG 1 tune) doesn't feel like much to Dave, I doubt how then a front pipe is going to blow his socks off when it should only yield another few kilowatts?

But it has already knocked his socks of REXman.
As I've (tried to) consistently explain, the bulk of your "peak" figures are gained via the Stage I upgrade. But look where that peak kW increase is at - 6700rpm. The torque increases at the lowest end of the dyno are there, but not huge. Change to Stage II(+) and your power and torque is coming on greater, earlier. This is what Dave_R is missing with his Stage I after experiencing Stage II+ - not the peak figures, but the torque and power delivery under 4500rpm.

[Corey_R]

I have done a once over of this thread (well, a few times over) and deleted all the posts which are people talking about all sorts of other makes of cars, about theoretical concepts based on vague maths and incomparable data, and of people simply posting to antagonise members.

I have left everything which was on the topic that halojump created of Stage II+ cars. I've also left the discussion of Stage I vs Stage II/II+ cars and dave_r's disappointment with his Stage I upgrade after experiencing Fab_R's Stage II+.



As it has become very clear in this thread, it is a very difficult task to compare any form of performance data.
The "bum-on-seat-o-meter" is extremely unreliable and can be easily mislead by multiple senses (Polo's feeling quicker than R's) or swayed by recent experiences (Stage I feeling as though there is no difference from stock after just being in Stage II+).
Dynographs are not comparable to each other in most circumstances, and it seems that several dyno operators don't even know how to use the dynometers they have! Even "real world" performance data is difficult to compare due to the method that tests are conducted by, the equipment used to test, and also the conditions of the track surface, weather conditions, and the driver and other factors involved in that testing.


Since dave_r has a plan moving forward to perform real world tests, via a Vbox performance meter, and as halojump and and I will have some time with two brand new GTech GPS performance meters to perform some more tests, hopefully we can add something useful to this thread, taking into account as much of the advice and technicalities that people have picked with the existing information. dave_r and I are both hoping to involve some other members so that we can do our best to "fill in the blanks" which have been pointed out here (such as stock R 0-100 times conducted in the same conditions as the Stage I and Stage II+ 0-100 times being performed).


I'm also wondering if it would be possible to write a "Guide" and a series of "disclaimers" on performance topics. Off the top of my head, it could include things such as:
- How manufacturers kW/Nm produce their claims
- How aftermarket tuners come up with their claims
- The variations in dynos; how dynos can be useful; and how to interpret dyno results and identify dyno results which are useless
- Variations in "real world" performance tests; how to best conduct them; how and what can be compared from different tests, if anything

I've already put my hand out to robby_jai on that one, but I invite anyone with suggestions, or maybe even links to existing guides on the subject, to PM me and offer suggestions. Maybe we could start a thread which is "brand and tune state neutral" and discuss it?

Anyway, that's enough for now.
Please feel free to PM me if I have missed something, or if you believe you wrote a post which should still be visible.
Cheers.