ECU tune and emission requirements

[The_Hawk]

Guys am I right in thinking that the Vehicle Standards is a code of practice and therefore not actually law. Also the VSB6 is only applicable to Modified Heavy Vehicles (Trucks).

VSB14 is correct, I have so many tabs open it looks like I have copied the wrong one:
Vehicle Standards Bulletin 14 (VSB 14)

Bust as has already been mentioned "NCOP3 Section LA Engine V2 01Jan2011" which is the one I was reading and referencing:
http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roa...jan2011_v3.pdf

Page six is where I was pulling quotes.

That said, I'm still struggling with the idea that any authorities would be able to analyze ECU data to determine that one tune is producing a few more kilowatts than another tune?

As I said earlier, it's not about the Authorities hunting you down or checking to make sure you comply, the onus is usually on you to prove you were compliant if you ever need to. Again it's unlikely to be called into question by even your insurers, but according to a legal interpretation of their policy you must be compliant with all local laws/requirements and the power inscrease could very well mean you are not if you do not have the appropriate certificate.

(On a side note, did I read somewhere that the certificate is only valid for 30 days anyway??)


In any case, I think something like this deserves a little further investigation for a clear answer.

[audi-tone]

Buy a car with enough power in the first place and be happy..
This whole thread is a little silly imo.

People understand the risks of modifying a car in regards to insurance.
Has anyone ever known of an insurance claim being rejected because of an ecu remap? (Serious question)

Each to their own..

[Guy_H]

I would still love to know how, they could ever prove what power the car puts out stock and then modified.

If anyone has ever dynoed a MK5 GTI vs MK6 GTI on a chassis dyno, the stated power is 147kw & 155kw (8kw delta - flywheel) - the standard cars measure up to 20kw apart at the wheels!

You will also find that Audi's current engine figures for the 3.0T & 4.2 FSI vary considerably from advertised figures to measured figures. The 4.2's make less power than advertised, the 3.0T's make more.

Imagine if all the tunes gave you exactly 19.99% increase over stock?

[Transporter]

I was watching the news the other day about the fish dying and washing out on the beaches. The 2 young dolphins were found with the bleeding from their eyes. The authorities that investigate it don't have the answer and don't know why it is happening. Now you are thinking wtf is he about?

What I'm saying is they can't figure it out quickly enough and maybe never will, so how they would be able to find out the change in the software and to get how many kW above the stock you have after the accident?

The dolphin news was more interesting than this debate.

[Lucas_R]

All this undue concern over emissions and road-worthyness - yet no concern over the warrany on your brand new car after getting your ECU tuned? I would have thought your warranty would be front of mind and way ahead of any of this other stuff.

Honestly, if you are worrying this much over a basic level 1 ECU tune, then perhaps you are better off leaving the car 100% stock, or selling it and buying a faster car to begin with.

[h100vw]

There would need to be cause to even check it.

Then I would be, "Sorry mate I don't give you permission to thrash my car on a dyno to check the power output, what if you break it???"

Gavin

[JonP01]

All this undue concern over emissions and road-worthyness - yet no concern over the warrany on your brand new car after getting your ECU tuned? I would have thought your warranty would be front of mind and way ahead of any of this other stuff.

Honestly, if you are worrying this much over a basic level 1 ECU tune, then perhaps you are better off leaving the car 100% stock, or selling it and buying a faster car to begin with.

Just to clarify, the car is not brand new - it is 8 months old.

I have outlined the reasons previously as to why I bought the Polo. There was no other car on the market that met all my criteria. I could have afforded the GTI version but wanted a manual transmission, smaller wheels and the Comfortline suspension. If VW had offered a Comfortline 90TSI option I would have specified that in a heart beat.

In any case, it is not that I am dis satisfied with the stock engine, but a tune will make the engine even smoother, get rid of the micro flatspots in the torque and power curves and simply get me the performance I have paid for and when using Caltex Vortex 98. The stock 77tsi as it is, is what I would call a 90% engined car for me. Any of these tunes would easily get the engine to the level I think the car should have for what it is.

As for warranty, both Viezu and Superchips will take over the driveline / engine warranty to at least some extent in comparison the the original VW warranty. What worries me more is an argument between VW and the tuning company if something does go wrong. Yes, warranty is a cause for hesitation, but with the way I drive and the easy low kilometre life the car gets, I would actually be very surprised if anything were to ever go wrong with the engine or drivetrain.

I may well hold out for the duration of the VW warranty but then of course I have all that time driving in an un optimised car and nothing will likely ever go wrong with it (car has been 100% flawless so far and has not used a single drop of oil). In any case, whether I get it tuned tomorrow or in 2 years time, none of the issues discussed in this thread are going to go away. They apply to any car today, tomorrow, in 2 years time....

[JonP01]

I would still love to know how, they could ever prove what power the car puts out stock and then modified.

If anyone has ever dynoed a MK5 GTI vs MK6 GTI on a chassis dyno, the stated power is 147kw & 155kw (8kw delta - flywheel) - the standard cars measure up to 20kw apart at the wheels!

You will also find that Audi's current engine figures for the 3.0T & 4.2 FSI vary considerably from advertised figures to measured figures. The 4.2's make less power than advertised, the 3.0T's make more.

Imagine if all the tunes gave you exactly 19.99% increase over stock?

I have noticed such huge variations. And that brings me to a very dumb question. Given these modern ECUs are supposedly so intelligent, are these aftermarket tunes absolute in the performance they bring or relative to the existing capability of the engine? For example, if I were to get a 92 kw / 215 nm tune, what if my car was already 5 kw better to begin with? Do I then get a 10 kw increase or a 15 kw increase? I know figures can never be exact and depend day to day oh a number of factors, but you get the essense of the question.

[Diesel_vert]

It would appear that the only impediment to significant increases in engine power output is the cost of certification.

From your own perspective, if the cost of a claim potentially being denied by an insurance company is greater than the cost of certification (judging from your posts, that appears to be the overriding impression), then it would make sense to pay for the cost of certification, freeing you from insurance claim worries and the 20% limit.

Gotta pay to play (by the rules).

[JonP01]

Jonathan, if you are going with the BSR option because the increase in power is mild; then please get in touch with me as we can do the same. Just because we have rated our tune to approximately 100kW does not mean we cannot "de-tune" our tune.

Hi John,

That sounds very interesting indeed and I honestly did not know this was possible. I thought I would simply have to take whatever tune was available for my car. I will likely contact you in this regard but perhaps others reading this thread might be interested to know about this option as well. I realise most people are not going to be fussed by these 20% limits and that is fine by me, but I would still like to personally knowlingly purchase a tune that at least in theory meets both RTA and insurer requirements without the hassle of engaging an expensive VSCCS engineer to certify it for my individual car.

So I am wondering if I did this, would you or DNA UK be able to provide some sort of hard copy (not email) covering letter on the tuning purchase invoice stating that the tune had been derated to 92 kw as per customer requirements? And would you / DNA UK maintain a record that the specific tune done to my car was a 92 kW de-rated Stage 1 tune? At least that way if push ever came to shove with the NRMA / RTA or whoever, I would have backup documentation and evidence to indicate the car never required engineering certification, since even government departments can multiply 77 * 1.2 and get 92.4.

Also, what specific things might be done to the tune to de-rate it? How would torque be affected, for example, and would the turbo boost levels be reduced (which is fine by me). I was always more concerned about absolute smoothness, getting rid of the last micro flat spots and improving low down and midrange torque than I was power in any case. I think I have only ever taken the car over 4,000 RPM once in the entire time I have had it, so mid range torque was always far more important than power for me anyway.