Dyno - GTI mk6 Stage 3

[parso_rex]

Even more so then and would explain the substantially higher figures.

When you are getting 30kw+ above what others are getting people are bound to ask questions.

Your not a hater...
Its a hub dyno nothing wrong with that but you have to keep the numbers in perspective and it should be specified when the figures are quoted otherwise you'll get laughed at hard. I've never seen less than 30 difference on ours with the Tunehouse and MRT one in Sydney, in fact the record is 45 kW atw difference for an STI. Its well known on all the other forums and certainly nothing new. The good thing on these ones is the consistency when used as a tuning tool - which is what it is, theres no slippage or any other wierd losses.
If you want to use the figures for a direct comparison then there's going to be a lot of sad faces at the next mainline equipped dyno day or even a dyno dynamics one for that matter, seen it so many times before...........

Mark the H8r

[Guy_H]

Every dyno & brand will be different, as much as we like Mainline, they can vary dramatically from one to another (Mainline ran the Tuner Shootout a couple of weeks ago & several of the competing workshops own Mainlines & the results varied up to 15%).

The other problem is the twin roller setup & downward pull on the vehicle to keep it between the rollers. You never get this load & tyre deflection (double) on the road, so of course it will effect output. Strap it down another 50nm (or loosen it) and see the reading change.

The single roller MAHA is the one to use, this is the same type that certifies VW / Audi's power outputs throughout Europe. They are hugely expensive, but their features are fantastic, the the run down / drivetrain measuring loss feature makes it the most accurate of all (ie, run it in 2nd or run it in 5th gear & you get the same crank output). The car is placed ON the dyno (car sits on top of the Roller/s) and the tyres are not deflected or squashed down like a dual roller setup. The car is then chained front & back to hold it in one place & it runs a very long pull (compared to what we normally do on a Mainline or Dynapack).

You can still have wheel slip in extreme cases, and cooling fans are still an issue, but if we could afford one, the MAHA is the go. BWA Auto in Sydney have one they hire out.

[parso_rex]

Every dyno & brand will be different, as much as we like Mainline, they can vary dramatically from one to another (Mainline ran the Tuner Shootout a couple of weeks ago & several of the competing workshops own Mainlines & the results varied up to 15%).

The other problem is the twin roller setup & downward pull on the vehicle to keep it between the rollers. You never get this load & tyre deflection (double) on the road, so of course it will effect output. Strap it down another 50nm (or loosen it) and see the reading change.

The single roller MAHA is the one to use, this is the same type that certifies VW / Audi's power outputs throughout Europe. They are hugely expensive, but their features are fantastic, the the run down / drivetrain measuring loss feature makes it the most accurate of all (ie, run it in 2nd or run it in 5th gear & you get the same crank output). The car is placed ON the dyno (car sits on top of the Roller/s) and the tyres are not deflected or squashed down like a dual roller setup. The car is then chained front & back to hold it in one place & it runs a very long pull (compared to what we normally do on a Mainline or Dynapack).

You can still have wheel slip in extreme cases, and cooling fans are still an issue, but if we could afford one, the MAHA is the go. BWA Auto in Sydney have one they hire out.

I have to disagree with you there re the differences. In the 4 that I regularly use the power varies with 5kW in circa 200 or about 3 percent. That's the worst case on different days in fact its amazing the difference is so small. The tie down method and tyre pressure makes very little difference unless the car is very very loosely attached if its strapped down as specified so the car is not allowed to climb its is very consistent. The same applies to the the gear used as long as the ramp rate is correct (one place in WA recently was doing their ramps in 3rd and very fast 20kmph/sec which is unrealistic and it amplifies the result) At the last dyno day we had my own car in 4th and 3rd with a long 10kmph/sec ramp and result varied by 3kW between runs i.e negligible this was in front of the whole Sydney crowd
To be fair though the dynos above that I use all have the more recent software and I do know that the older software (we are talking more than 5 years old or perhaps more) can give different (lower) results. Some workshops won't upgrade either because it costs quite a lot.
The Mahas are quite old school and they have their own set of limitations (fixed mass or something I recall) and they are very popular with the Europeans in fact my own contacts use nothing but Maha but I can't comment personally. In the future I wouldn't mind running on one to learn a bit more and to satisfy some friends offshore. As for the differences I do have an interesting breakdown somewhere that I can dig up, certainly the long ramps are a good thing. With the dyna pacs if you put a car on one model and then run it again on the bigger capacity model you'll see quite a big difference but use the same one run after run they would be great and probably what I would opt for.
I won't even touch on the DD's they vary all over the place and can easily be tweaked to a desired outcome.

Really it all comes down to the operator and the standards/agreed procedure used in order to keep these things a reliable albeit expensive tool

[Guy_H]

Mark, You may disagree, but even on your own dyno (or the one you use) one of our own customers (without any change to hardware or software) had a variance of around ~ 30 wkw - which I believe you put down to operator error? And that was back to back run against Mainline's own dyno @ Mainline headquarters.

The Official VWGolf.Net Dyno Power Chart - Page 7

The Official VWGolf.Net Dyno Power Chart - Page 8

Anyway, I understand the car eventually made the horsepower with dyno adjustments or running it differently or getting someone else to run it. We obviously had lot's of correspondence from the customer over this.

If this is the case,I suppose you couldn't compare Mainlines, even with the same software update - if they vary that much because someone can change a setting somewhere?

We use ours to measure engine power, eliminating the wheels & those forces is the way Dynapack do it & it works well for what we do (and we have 4 people who can operate it it).

Mind you, this is not a dyno thread (about how dyno's work), I would own a Mainline, I would love to own a MAHA - we use our data as uncorrected (because as you know, the figure the dyno applies on the different corrections varies the results) and even if it varies a couple of kw's, that's enough to start a forum war!

You should try the MAHA one day, impressive machines.

[058oys]

Sorry Guy

I didn't mean to start a Dyno war...

this car has been on many dyno's with differant out comes many close to this figure as Guy has stated
I put it in one dyno comp on a very old DD and it only made 191kw and still won its class, everyone had very low numbers
like i said before it is was it is on that day and that dyno, we are always going to promo the highest numbers
it's the same with our 1/4 mile times you could have a car that has run 13.0 20 times and the first and only time
it runs 12.99 you will be telling everyone you have a 12 second car

[parso_rex]

I take it thats John's car ? well I didn't go into it at the time because its his (and perhaps your) business but what I did do was confirm that the operator, in this case the workshop owner did carry out the earlier runs properly. On the day I was there (a week later I think) with John we ran the car many times, with each successive run we completed it climbed in output up to its maximum over 200 so very very unusual as normally you would expect inlet temps to come into play and wind things down...adaption ?? I don't think so, given the kilometers covered and time since the file was loaded - but it did seem like that but 20~30 kW difference ? . Not a single thing was changed between runs and I used dual fans to minimise air temp issues. I don't know what went on with his support issue prior to this but I was given the impression that he was not amused to say the least, it would have been quite easy for me to fault the tune and sell him one of my own but I don't work that way. With that file afterthe dyno runs were complete we did some logging on the road and it felt quite strong (yes your new tunes are unfortunately for the others finally better ) and I cannot explain the big differences between the runs- never seen anything like it to date. The dyno was reporting the behaviour correctly too you could feel the difference from an initial lowly 170~180 figure up to its peak. I'm sure John would supply you with copies runs if requested and I probably have the logs available for him too.

I'll leave the thread alone as we're getting too OT but I think its been a constructive rant in some respects certainly no bad feelings intended here. The OP's car obviously goes very well

[Guy_H]

Pat, No problem, the GTI is a beast, we all know that - so no probblem there, maybe other people get a bit more understanding on dyno readouts.

Mark,

The only problem John ever had with his car was his low dyno readout from your dyno. The previous 3 or 4 dyno's he did at different places (including straight after yours) all showed numbers that were correct & in the ballpark.

There was no work done on his car what so ever (as nothing was wrong), and then it magically came up with an extra 30 odd kw's. I suppose what this highlights is on a Mainline (in this case) is you can be 15% down due to dyno issues or operator error.

[John2204]

Guy - the dyno readout was not the only problem as I mentioned to you. The revs hanging/flutter/surge or whatever you may call it still persists at low revs in D mode. I am still waiting for you to pm me that promised discounted DSG tune that "may" fix the problem.

Mark spent half a day logging/test driving/running diagnostics and helped me understand the processes involved in tuning (All free of charge of course) and not once did he try sell one of his tunes to me.

In the end I am partly to blame for my half-knowledge.

[Guy_H]

Hi John, you have a PM coming!

[058oys]

Hey Guy

Saw this on Youtube, USP Motorsports in the US have an APR stage 3 v2.0 mk6 GTI and it made 351.13hp or 261.83kw at the wheels

on what I think is a MAHA dyno, Just backs your dyno up