APR tune price hike

[jazzyjames999]

that would be like being married to a supermodel (Jenner or Kerr) but you only get see her from 2m distance during the nights in the same bedroom... and nothing more

^^^^ hahaha love this

[AdamD]

Playing devils advocate for the moment, with a tuning box, what if the driver was easy on the car i.e no racing, no 0-62 sprints etc and just used the extra bit of torque (or boost ) on the motorway, do you think this would have the same damaging effect?

You don't need to be flooring the throttle or pulling high revs to be (potentially) doing damage to an engine. As a tuning box can't control timing or fuel, it's just winding up the boost; whenever you're getting more power than you would with the stock program, the ECU's stock programming is making adjustments to compensate, whilst trying to maintain lambda (14.7:1 AFR, or whatever it is at the current temperature/pressure using the current fuel). How effective the ECU is at making adjustments in a very reactionary manner, in response to conditions that it is not expecting, has a bearing on whether the engine can suffer damage. That's my understanding anyway.

A dedicated ECU tune can still maintain safe limits in terms of internal temperatures, knock etc, and still uses all the tools at its disposal like ignition retardation and dumping more fuel into the engine, in order to get those temperatures down and keep the engine safe. A good tune will be no less safe under operating extremes than an OEM tune, and will react in exactly the same way when it detects that a safe threshold has been reached. When the limits haven't been reached, then a tune can advance timing, lean the mixture somewhat and ramp up the boost (all in a coordinated way) to give you more power than the stock tune would - but only until the sensors tell it that it's getting close to sensible limits. (And it's that definition of "sensible limit" that differs between a tuner and VW - VW needs to leave a ton of headroom to allow for drivers who abuse their cars constantly, rev hard from cold, never change the oil or service the car, and worse.)

It could be argued that in some respects an aftermarket tune might even be safer than OEM, if it's been developed to take a more traditional approach to internal temps and run richer than the stock tune would. I don't understand the nuances of how the latest generation EA888 can run so close to lambda all the time, with such high internal temps, and not do damage. I guess a lot of this new strategy is down to economy and emissions - things that are certainly less important to me than the longevity of my engine.

[Guy_H]

The ECU can adjust to certain levels, that is why tuning boxes can survive sometimes.

But when they do blow a hole through a piston, generally the remedy is to remove the box and take it in for warranty.

Either way, we can not mask the technical downsides of using one on a modern car.

It's like trying to make your bi xenon headlights perform better by strapping two candles to your front bumper. Technically you have have made it brighter using a pretty old flawed technology coupled with risks - Don't see this happening, yet people install tuning boxes without understanding how they work.

[Guy_H]

You don't need to be flooring the throttle or pulling high revs to be (potentially) doing damage to an engine. As a tuning box can't control timing or fuel, it's just winding up the boost; whenever you're getting more power than you would with the stock program, the ECU's stock programming is making adjustments to compensate, whilst trying to maintain lambda (14.7:1 AFR, or whatever it is at the current temperature/pressure using the current fuel). How effective the ECU is at making adjustments in a very reactionary manner, in response to conditions that it is not expecting, has a bearing on whether the engine can suffer damage. That's my understanding anyway.

A dedicated ECU tune can still maintain safe limits in terms of internal temperatures, knock etc, and still uses all the tools at its disposal like ignition retardation and dumping more fuel into the engine, in order to get those temperatures down and keep the engine safe. A good tune will be no less safe under operating extremes than an OEM tune, and will react in exactly the same way when it detects that a safe threshold has been reached. When the limits haven't been reached, then a tune can advance timing, lean the mixture somewhat and ramp up the boost (all in a coordinated way) to give you more power than the stock tune would - but only until the sensors tell it that it's getting close to sensible limits. (And it's that definition of "sensible limit" that differs between a tuner and VW - VW needs to leave a ton of headroom to allow for drivers who abuse their cars constantly, rev hard from cold, never change the oil or service the car, and worse.)

It could be argued that in some respects an aftermarket tune might even be safer than OEM, if it's been developed to take a more traditional approach to internal temps and run richer than the stock tune would. I don't understand the nuances of how the latest generation EA888 can run so close to lambda all the time, with such high internal temps, and not do damage. I guess a lot of this new strategy is down to economy and emissions - things that are certainly less important to me than the longevity of my engine.

A great example of this is the APR tune on the 118 TSI's is doing wonders for engine life (reported back to us), where the factory tune is hugely lean to hit an emission target, at a sacrifice of engine life.

[VW Convert]

that would be like being married to a supermodel (Jenner or Kerr) but you only get see her from 2m distance during the nights in the same bedroom... and nothing more

This would be a candidate for best post of the year! Love it

Cheers

George

[Primordial]

The ECU can adjust to certain levels, that is why tuning boxes can survive sometimes.

But when they do blow a hole through a piston, generally the remedy is to remove the box and take it in for warranty.

Either way, we can not mask the technical downsides of using one on a modern car.

It's like trying to make your bi xenon headlights perform better by strapping two candles to your front bumper. Technically you have have made it brighter using a pretty old flawed technology coupled with risks - Don't see this happening, yet people install tuning boxes without understanding how they work.

Ok so it's not all doom and gloom then - the ECU will adapt to a point.

You've got me intrigued though. I'm fitting some go fast bits in a couple of weeks, so I think I'll add a some dyno runs to that, and get some logs of the AFR. Happy to post up some graphs here once it's done.

Glad you clarified that - if it's as bad as you suggest, the box will be gone quick-smart!

[Yagadan]

The ECU can adjust to certain levels, that is why tuning boxes can survive sometimes.

But when they do blow a hole through a piston, generally the remedy is to remove the box and take it in for warranty.

Either way, we can not mask the technical downsides of using one on a modern car.

It's like trying to make your bi xenon headlights perform better by strapping two candles to your front bumper. Technically you have have made it brighter using a pretty old flawed technology coupled with risks - Don't see this happening, yet people install tuning boxes without understanding how they work.

I spose the very small chance a tuning box did do that (used one on a 335i for 140000km with not a single problem) then yes remove and warranty is what people will do.

On the other hand if you are tuned and are unlucky to blow something up then you may be denied for warranty and have a massive repair bill.

[jrathgen]

I have just installed a power module to my GTi and am happy to provide my car for some dyno runs to prove or disprove what the box can do - or does not. Is anyone in Melbourne able to offer their dyno free of charge in order to publish the charts for scrutiny?
Cheers, John

[mp2811]

I think the APR tune is still great value for money overall, considering the gains you get. It's easily got the most R&D for Australian conditions, it's so good that at this point of time stage 2 no real gains at all.

Almost all the APR dealers running the software and hardware themselves with proven results. 11 sec 1/4 mile times, plenty of Dyno charts both here and in UK showing 370-385hp stage 1 with intake and 540nm. Graphs showing good AFR's which are richer/better than stock.

I'm yet to see another tuning company showing any real dyno graphs to compare, AFR's or 1/4 mile times. When prob 95% of people will stop at just stage 1 and possibly intake due to fantastic results then price seems more reasonable.

[cbwolf]

The ECU can adjust to certain levels, that is why tuning boxes can survive sometimes.

But when they do blow a hole through a piston, generally the remedy is to remove the box and take it in for warranty.

Either way, we can not mask the technical downsides of using one on a modern car.

It's like trying to make your bi xenon headlights perform better by strapping two candles to your front bumper. Technically you have have made it brighter using a pretty old flawed technology coupled with risks - Don't see this happening, yet people install tuning boxes without understanding how they work.

What about the ABT piggyback? It taps into the CANBUS and adjusts fueling, while still being removable and not triggering TD1. Unless i've missed something?

Granted, you pay like a $1k premium over a full tune for the ABT piggyback, but at least they also give you a 2 year powertrain warranty.