Anyone had problems after a remap?

[gavs]

Hi,

Just so everyone is clear about the situation, (because there is some pretty slanderous stuff in this thread), here is our version of events following the remap which we carried out on the Tiguan...

Initially we were shocked to find out that number 4 big end bearing had failed on Naresh's car, so we started our own investigations. The exact remapping file used was sent to two independent remapping companies (who actually make their own software), who said that the remap was acceptable and could not have caused damage.

We then employed a highly regarded Independent Auto Engineer (who has done this sort of thing most of his life) to go and inspect the engine at VW, ascertain why the engine failed and produce a report stating his findings.

His conclusions state that number 4 big end bearing suffered from a momentary lack of lubrication, and the bearing shell spun inside the con rod. Because number 4 bearing is the furthest away from the oil pump, it is likely that the engine had been starved of oil OR driven before the oil pressure had reached an adequate level. All of the 3 other end bearings were inspected and were perfect.

We have been remapping cars for almost 8 years now and we have never known an engine failure directly related to a remap.

Obviously, we feel bad for Naresh having to pay for a new engine, but we cannot be held responsible given the circumstances.

Finally, we are certainly not "cowboys"... we have applied the same parameters to many 2.0 TDI CR's before the Tiguan and have done since without issue.

Kind regards,
Mike.
More-BHP Ltd.

Good on you for jumping on here and explaining the situation, also good job on getting your own independent assessment done but seems that over there as it is here, VAG don't take that as proof that something could have been their fault. Did you also happen to consult with Naresh as to the results of your findings? This is relevant because the dealership and seemingly VW uk have taken the immediate stance of the tune being at fault. If this was mentioned whatsoever by any VW representative thn you will have grounds (both naresh and also your business potentially for defamation) to take to court.

I just hope your civil tribunals over there aren't as clogged up as ours because I people contesting speeding fines

[JonP01]

Well the car is back in my garage now and I had to pay out for the repair myself. Birmingham VW here in the UK refused to cover the repair under warranty and also refused to blame the remap either so I was left asking myself who was actually to blame

In fairness to the dealer, their hands were almost certainly tied. Since last year, VAG have implemented changes in the scanning process whereby any remap (even if returned to stock) is automatically detected and a TD1 flag is added to the vehicle warranty record without any intervention by the dealer or the technician performing a service. It is completely transparent and the only way you can avoid getting this flag is to either never remap the car or never visit a dealer. Once that TD1 flag is added to your vehicle record, whether a power and drive train warranty claim is honoured is no longer up to the dealer. Whilst the dealer could argue as long as they liked that a remap did not cause a bearing failure, once that TD1 record exists they really have very little ability to pursuade VAG to pay up.

As for the reasons for VAG doing this, it is a deliberate crackdown on aftermarket remappings which are specifically mentioned (at least in Australia) as automatically voiding the warranty.

Given that most remaps are likely to be perfectly safe so long as good quality fuel is used, the car regularly serviced, properly driven, etc, on the other hand I can see the manufacturer viewpoint as well. They have to make a product that suits the mass market and they need to make it as durable and bullet proof as possible. The manufacturer cant predict or know that some owners will treat their vehicles in one particular way and that others will abuse their cars. So they have to shoot for a lowest common denominator (which is obviously pretty low given how well companies like DNA can improve the engine tune).

I would have thought that these days it would be possible to tell if a car had been abused or the engine stressed beyond safe limits by downloading data held in ECU memory, but perhaps things are not yet that sophisticated.

[noone]

I'm sorry for your troubles as a fairly ordinary car owner. If I'd had the sort of issues you were facing I have no idea how I would deal with it (I'd want to be rational and patient, but its a lot of money any which way and you still need to get around).

Its a shame that VW has taken to the blanket argument of 'if its tuned then they broke it' without having to back that up. Also, with the modern computer management, its harder and harder for independent dealerships to keep up to date with the ability to service the electrical components of these vehicles.

From the little evidence presented, it looks like VW have made an effort to not fully test and come clean, then again I don't know what contract you sign when you buy a new vehicle, maybe you signed a document saying that VW's word is final and that they decide the rules on the fly.

Shame, a new car with stock mechanical and a tune should be a joy, unfortunately we have to talk to VW with our wallets and encourage them to support our communities rather than pretending that VW's are so amazingly different than any other vehicle that you have to put fluids in with a VW sticker on them, serviced at a dealership (overcharged in many cases) and then be grateful that they continue to work on it if you decide to modify it in the slightest. One more reason I doubt I'd ever buy a modern VW.

In this case it would appear that no one at VW looked at the code, no one checked the oil was correct, no one asked how the ECU could cause a failiure in 1 cyl and not the other 3 and all in such a brief period. Seems to me like they didn't really want to get to the bottom of it, just get to the point they could show damage (anything really).

Ass-covering. After all this, will you keep it?

If this were in Aus, I'm guessing the bill would have been well north of $10k.

[Naresh]

In response to what I have read from the above tuner I feel the need to clarify a few points and let others know where I stand on the matter. Until any evidence has been presented to me no one has yet escaped any blame. As a customer who paid for a service I'm not to blame here which is what it has felt like at times. In terms of driving style that shouldn't really doesn't apply to me as the car is/was used regularly for school runs transporting a 6 year old to school so any possibility of thrashing it around before the oil pressure/temperature was correct doesn't apply here. I certainly didn't buy an SUV to abuse on the roads. The remap was purchased to help open the car up a little so that overtaking on motorways/highways became easier, as I felt the diesel engine (my first) ran out of puff far too easily for my liking.

As for this so called report suggesting that number 4 piston failed, well I have yet to see any evidence of this report whatsover. If it exists, then apologies are due, but until then the fact that Mike, Jason, or whoever is in charge at "more-bhp" stating that they had an independent, highly regarded, auto engineer inspect my car is simply lip service and a whole PR stunt. In fact, that statement has more holes in it than a lump of swiss cheese. However, I will re-iterate my first statement - if the report exists then the tuner has my contact details and as I have requested several times before via email, I am happy for them to furnish me with their evidence so that I can take that to the UK dealer to prove that the remap wasn't at fault.

I've also not seen any evidence of any investigation of the mapping software placed on my car. If that took place I was certainly not told who carried it out, despite asking for that report.

It may seem harsh to the tuner that I have chosen to write here about my problems but I did ask them for the report and the details listed above regarding big end bearing on number 4 piston and the lack of lubrication, oil startvation etc has only now been mentioned when I have spoken about them publically. Coincidence? Perhaps. Covering their backs? Very likely? Being in the tuning business for 8 odd years is no excuse. Everyone makes mistakes and the wrong ignition timings, not checking vehicle components before mapping, or any other aspect of tuning, no one can escape blame until hard physical evidence can be presented to me. For me, this whole experience has left me both mentally and physically drained, and came at a time when my wife was recovering from an unplanned hysterectomy. The last thing we all wanted was additional stress and strain in our lives.

The fact is now that I am left with a £5,500 debt that I shouldn't have paid out for. Both VW and the tuner has washed their hands of it from the very start. VW immediately voided my warranty and my emails to the tuner were simply met with replies of internet links to their terms and conditions page stating no warranty on modified vehicles. All work on my car was carried out with no communication to myself despite constant messages being left with them and the map was removed from my car during that process without me knowing. It was only when a rare call from the dealer told me that more-bhp had travelled down to them to remove my ECU to take back to their workshop that I was aware of this. When I was told initially that returning the car to stock would lead to a refund of the cost I received no contact from the tuner telling me that he had removed my map and I was due my money back. It was only when I called him that he reluctantly refunded it. Obviously that cost was peanuts to what I have shelled out on the repair so hardly a goodwill gesture of any kind!

No one should be put in this position after a remap, a new engine after 20,000 miles and the heartache of being hit in the wallet so hard that you are physically sick to the pit of your stomach!

Until someone puts up their hand to say they were at fault, or I receive some actual real evidence this saga won't end until I get some closure and that may be harsh on the tuner but if you were to spend at least a day in my shoes you could actually empathise what I have been through. Up to now it all seems like one big conspiracy with the tuner and dealer making an "apparent" agreement to keep quiet so they can both continue with their daily business with no apparent guilt being shown. The service manager at VW certainly benefitted financially from this whole event!

[Ideo]

I really don't think it is fair to blame the tuner for this.

They may seem an easy target because they don't have the resources of VW, but I would be targetting the last person to carry out a service.

A tune should not impact upon anything like that. Running an engine on low/without oil will.

[noone]

I really don't think it is fair to blame the tuner for this.

Should they not be somewhat involved given the timing of the tune to engine issue? I don't think anyone should be blamed, but what the OP is asking for is fair appraisal and fair treatment by both dealer and tuner. He feels he has received neither, from what I read, I'd agree.

Mike have you supplied the OP with a report? He's fairly clearly stated you've sent him nothing, it would seem if you have supplied an engineer to inspect a vehicle at VW that the OP would have been involved / informed? Surely random engineers are not allowed to walk into a dealership and start an inspection without authorization and the whole point of a report / inspection is to inform the OP of the findings?

A tune should not impact upon anything like that. Running an engine on low/without oil will.

Its all speculation mate, there is no real evidence any which way, just some photos and extracts of what VW have told OP.

[Martin]

Everybody would empathise with the incident (and personal matters) you've been through

However:

• You're wasting your time complaining about VW voiding your warranty, that was always going to happen (you didn't research the ramifications of the remap?)
• It's unlikely that a remap has anything to do with this specific failure
• The price you've paid for the repair seems very excessive (are UK labour rates a lot higher than AU?)

This situation and difficulties I've been through in my life remind me of the motto:
Life is 10% what happens to you, 90% how you deal with it

[Naresh]

Mike have you supplied the OP with a report? He's fairly clearly stated you've sent him nothing, it would seem if you have supplied an engineer to inspect a vehicle at VW that the OP would have been involved / informed? Surely random engineers are not allowed to walk into a dealership and start an inspection without authorization and the whole point of a report / inspection is to inform the OP of the findings?

Nope. Nothing. No response from the tuner whatsover. Oh and I just checked his first post on here before his "statement" above was to advertise his tuning services - bit ironic that..........or was it damage limitation?

If I was a tuner and had a customer incurr what I have just been through I would bend over backwards to offer support, and if that means to send over the "Independent Report" then I would do so to cover my back. As mentioned above so far it is all inspection but surely as a tuner you would want to provide sufficient evidence to do just that? Send me emails telling me where to find their terms and conditions does nothing to help me come to terms with losing the equivalent money of 2 family holidays abroad! I would be more worried how such publicity could possibly impact on the reputation of my business. These days every service is based on reputation and trust and this tuner has lost any faith left from me and any other tuner for that matter.

[Valleyboy65]

Hi Naresh,

I am reading all these posts with interest, and sympathize, I have very little doubt that the tune done / had little or no affect to your vehicle. Even though a tune would be picked up straight away as mine was by myself by VCDS, the ECU logs everything.

I too recently had a tune and DPF delete done from a tuner who was recommended to me. Very few tuners know what they are doing out here than in the UK regarding diesels. Besides the point.

The UK are far more geared up for this sort of thing than in Australia and know what they are doing. Yes there is the odd shonky bastard but you would not even go to them.
Once you went to VW and told them everything you were doomed, if you had not mentioned the tune they would have just proceeded with a warranty claim No doubt as to big end bearing failiure, the fact that they only removed one piston tells me there was a problem they knew about and was expecting, otherwise they would have to remove the lot as a precaution.
The tuner I assume feels in a very difficult situation now, after VW involved, and no one wants to talk due to legalities
Good luck

[Naresh]

Hi there the tune was never mentioned to VW as I initially didn't link the two things. The visit to my dealer was due to a knocking noise coming from the engine, which I never thought was down to a problems with the piston. They apparently spotted the remap after a T1 flag was recorded on the ECU log and the methods of detection have become more sophisticated in recent months.