16v Coil Packs

[twin eng, twin turbs]

I am building a 2.1 litre 16 valve turbo for my mk2 scirocco and i am after coil packs that can mount ( with possible modification ) directly to the top of the spark plugs and rocker cover for the most powerful spark i can get, so the 20+ psi of boost it will be running dosn't blow out the spark. Has anyone seen this setup done before or am i better off mounting coil packs elsewhere with leads to the spark plugs? Does anyone know if 1.8t coil packs are the right length and could be used?

[h100vw]

I am building a 2.1 litre 16 valve turbo for my mk2 scirocco and i am after coil packs that can mount ( with possible modification ) directly to the top of the spark plugs and rocker cover for the most powerful spark i can get, so the 20+ psi of boost it will be running dosn't blow out the spark. Has anyone seen this setup done before or am i better off mounting coil packs elsewhere with leads to the spark plugs? Does anyone know if 1.8t coil packs are the right length and could be used?

I reckon 1.8T packs would fit ok. The later ones rather than the bolt down early type.

Gavin

[Golf Loon]

I reckon 1.8T packs would fit ok. The later ones rather than the bolt down early type.

Gavin

Yeah I reckon you are right, spot on Gavin.
Maybe buy one Marty and see that it fits.

[Valver.]

There are far better aftermarket options for individual coil packs if this is the way you want to go. I don't really know why you'd want to, though. The over-400BHP kits from the big name German tuners often still rely on distributor ignition. This isn't ideal admittedly (and is mainly because they piggyback Digi 1 injection), but a generic wastespark Bosch coil is perfectly reliable and most common on 1000hp 16vTs! You can even remove the factory ignitors and drive each bank directly with most reasonable ECUs (this is how I've done mine).

Running a primary crank trigger (in hall effect for best noise-protection), and maintaining the dissy (albeit with the cap blanked off) for its own hall sensor can allow fully sequential and the best throttle response. Even a WRX coil is a reliable way to go. I just don't see the point in driving four coilpacks and running more wires.

Just for the record, I realised the other day that the 2.0 8v blocks use a variable reluctance crank sensor and the ABF has a 5v/12v-supplied hall-sensor, which can affect the way your ECU board is configured. So if you have an ABF block, bear this in mind!

If not, there's also a rear main seal with a built-in 60-2 hall trigger, which will fit a 16v. I have a pic of it somewhere...

[twin eng, twin turbs]

There are far better aftermarket options for individual coil packs if this is the way you want to go. I don't really know why you'd want to, though. The over-400BHP kits from the big name German tuners often still rely on distributor ignition. This isn't ideal admittedly (and is mainly because they piggyback Digi 1 injection), but a generic wastespark Bosch coil is perfectly reliable and most common on 1000hp 16vTs! You can even remove the factory ignitors and drive each bank directly with most reasonable ECUs (this is how I've done mine).

Running a primary crank trigger (in hall effect for best noise-protection), and maintaining the dissy (albeit with the cap blanked off) for its own hall sensor can allow fully sequential and the best throttle response. Even a WRX coil is a reliable way to go. I just don't see the point in driving four coilpacks and running more wires.

Just for the record, I realised the other day that the 2.0 8v blocks use a variable reluctance crank sensor and the ABF has a 5v/12v-supplied hall-sensor, which can affect the way your ECU board is configured. So if you have an ABF block, bear this in mind!

If not, there's also a rear main seal with a built-in 60-2 hall trigger, which will fit a 16v. I have a pic of it somewhere...

I though you would have a great response valver!. It will be show and go so i want to make the engine bay as neat as possible aswell as putting out over 500hp. Thats my goal power output. I will be using an Autronic EMS and ignitor in the dissy. Talking with a few tuners in sydney they recommended using individual aftermarket coil packs purely because they give the best spark for high boost applications. Do you know any links for any suppliers of coil packs that will suit a 16v as all the ones i have found are not long enough to reach the plugs...

[roccodingo]

If not, there's also a rear main seal with a built-in 60-2 hall trigger, which will fit a 16v. I have a pic of it somewhere...

Just reading this the other nite on the tex..

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3516017&page=1

[twin eng, twin turbs]

Cheers Roccodingo that some great info you found their for me

[Valver.]

Just reading this the other nite on the tex..

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3516017&page=1

Yep that's the one! Word gets around the world fast!!

I should have said earlier: have a search around the archives on Vortex etc and you'll see how problematic VW COP (coil on plug) setups are. The Renault ones are much the same, too, and die all the time. Subjecting them to aftermarket management (with endless scope to charge them right up) only opens up more risks aswell.

You should definitely lose the dissy ignition and get a crank trigger instead. People slam the 034EFI one for being messy, but I wouldn't buy it anyway, because it's an external VR sensor and that isn't ideal. My ECU came with a similar one, which I tried out of curiosity, but when tested on the oscilliscope (thanks to my mate from the ABC tech department!!), it had a comparatively unreliable signal, which only cleaned up nicely with the alternator belt disconnected to cut out the noise - hardly useful. I wasn't using well-shielded cable, but meh! The hall sensor signal is bomb proof and if you're really smart, you'd buy the 034 setup (because it's cheap) and run it with a Citreon or ABF sensor and feed it with the 5v supply from your ECU, thus converting it to hall form.

As a side note, the ABF sensor is actually fed with 12v by the stock ECU, which has an in-built protection. Without this, you can feed it with 5v and it works exactly the same: 0.05v under magnet and around 3.85v when discharged.

It'd also be practical to use the fixed ABF distributor body (you don't obviously need the advance available from the older dissys) as it has the best hall sensor. Driving your ECU with Hall/Hall primary and secondary triggers is by the most reliable, despite the fact that some cars are VR/Hall as standard.

Once you have this setup, use a 2002 VW Polo 16v wastespark coilpack (common to many other models too), pairing 1 & 4 and 2 & 3, but marked as A & D and B & C on the coil body. [Wastespark is basically a twin coil pack where two banks are fired at once and the one spark not required is 'wasted']. I read and enquired heaps about this and it's deemed the most reliable setup by all those in the know!

If you want to get more technical, you can cut out even more risk by removing the stock ignitors (as mentioned earlier), but it's a fiddly job and I don't know for sure if it's worthwhile....

I'm about to convert my car to an Autronic SM4 (hence why this is all on the top of my head!!) as I need even more outputs than my VEMS has on offer. If you're going to use an SMC, it would have to be modified as it only has one coil output as far as I remember. I wouldn't bother with any other ECU. They're all **** compared to standard, Autronics are just the best performing and the best value. If my Digi 3 had a MAP sensor, I'd have retuned it to suit instead

P.S. A decoded 60-2 trigger wheel is (this is how mine is set at the moment):

Edge: Rising
Type: Multitooth
TDC after trigger: 60
Number of teeth on wheel: 58
Trigger tooth: 3
Next trigger tooth: 30
Crank min period: 3744 usec
Angular width of tooth: 2
Tooth relation Normal: 122
Tooth relation Missing: 181
Angular width of missing teeth: 6
Engine phase: 240

[twin eng, twin turbs]

Cheers Valver, some great info their. I reckon your right Autronic is the best ECU for the money for sure. Sounds like Hall/Hall primary and secondary is the go, I allready have a WRX waste spark coil pack, though i think ll buy all new gear to reduce potential issues. Did you use the 2002 polo coil pack on yours? I will see whether its worth while removing the factory ignitors...

[Oneofthegreats]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but there are two different style 20VT ignition coil's.

A 3 pin & a 4 pin(in built ignitor's/control unit's.)

From what I've read & apart from on going failure's (like all late model coil on plug coils incl. golf 5's) the 20VT coil's produce enough spark that have produced in excess of 600+whp & 700+hp without the spark blowing out.

There are also other control unit's out there that are on par with the Autronic dependant of what to intended purpose of the car/engine is used for.

Also note, that a ECU is only as good as the install, & mainly the tuner. I've seen the so-called "crappy" Microtech's with half the function's most people don't actually need outrun Autronic's, Motec's in all aspect's & also been right on par with the big gun's.

If your after some really high quality coil's, try M&W or ICE which are both Australian company's.

Also the stock bosch coil's that can come with Microtech's are known to produce to good's too.

One other misconception is getting rid of the Dizzy & going to individual coil pack's. If you don't have to, don't.
You can still make great power with a dizzy & be fully programmable if setup right.

My friend's daily driver Valiant for instances. Still ran a dizzy, a single coil & was making a reliable 410+rwkw's on PULP for over 15 year's.
Falcon turbo's making 400+rwkw's using dizzy's & one coil. One comes to mind making running straight gas, 470 rwkw's, dizzy, crane Hi-6 ingition module, LX92 coil & an Autronic controlling the ingition timing only.
There's plenty of VL turbo's out there still running dizzy's & running 8,9 & 10's & making plenty of power doing so.

Big thumb's up too Stu. Great info. Some very good reading there. I'm glad to see your moving onto a fully programmable ECU.