MK6 -v- MK7 : Golf GTI

[tonymy01]

There is no launch control in the manual so that skews the results further.

Lol,I agree you should compare DSG to DSG, but you don't need launch control in a manual as your left and right foot will do it fine.

[Cantgiveyouthat]

White James. Please wait and buy an R or an s3. It will save us and you the interminable essays on why the gti is quicker than your make believe mate Ray's car. 20% extra power, 4wd and small additional weight penalty are a well known Achilles heel when up against a gti.

[tonymy01]

I was surprised he suggested the R had body roll! My non-DCC R is very flat, hard to imagine anyone suggesting it had any roll (yes, it was a comparison, and I guess a MK7 GTI could "up the bar").

[WhiteJames]

Confirmation that Ray exists can be made through the local Sutherland dealership head mechanic … Ray has already brought up the B-Pillar noise issue on large heavy one wheel hits in his non-DCC MK6 Golf R. He has offered the head mechanic an extended drive on his regular route to work to replicate the noise. There is nothing that can be down about the chassis flex issue. I believe that when they strengthened the MK6 chassis over and above the MK5 chassis, the chassis twisting & torqueing has made its way up around the driver’s B-pillar on one wheel bumps.


Speaking of buying a new car, I come close to laying down a $500 deposit on the Golf 7 GTI Manual in similar spec to what I’m looking for due to arrive in Dec 2013. Better wait to see how the sale of my current ride fares. Still interested to see how the PP – GTI and Golf R in the Golf 7 version drive … so no rush.

In respect to the earlier video … I found that the Golf 7 GTI does pull from standstill more effectively than the MK6 GTI. Perhaps a combination of lighter weight, improved suspension tune maximizing greater use of the tyres purchase on the roadway and more linear delivery of the turbo boost in the new EA888 motor esp down low. Since when did a FWD launch better than an AWD?

The MK6 Golf R in the video is most probably running coilovers … perhaps an extra 25% spring rate or more with extra damping rate pushing the Golf R down in the tarmac for better traction. Okay … the MK6 Golf R is manual trans, does suffer from low-end turbo lag which may cause it to bog down on take-off, in addition to the extra weight.

It takes about half distance of the timed drag strip run for the MK6 Golf R to reel in the new Golf 7 GTI … in other words … about where most State limits come into force (110kph). Anything below the State max limit, and the Golf 7 GTI seems to have it all over the MK6 Golf R, making the new Golf 7 GTI more effective out in the real world.

Show me a 58K fully optioned new Golf 7 GTI –v- 58K almost fully optioned MK6 Golf R demo … and I’d be taking the Golf 7 GTI every time

WJ

[tonymy01]

That was a terrible getaway on the R in that vid, sounded like clutch slip 1st to 2nd too..would be better to see stock against stock.

[zoomda]

That was a terrible getaway on the R in that vid, sounded like clutch slip 1st to 2nd too..would be better to see stock against stock.

The time was so bad I hope it is stock!

[WhiteJames]

I believe that the B-pillar flex issue is not only pertinent to the MK6 Golf R, although the stiffer suspension tune may bring the noise out to a greater degree and more frequently than other models such as the MK6 GTI. I've had the issue when driving out in the country with my GTI on large deep one-wheel bumps travelling about 80kph. I originally thought it was a loose driver's door and asked to have the driver door mechanism checked. No issue with the doors, just a nuance of the tighter MK6 chassis with extra rigidity put lower into the chassis over the MK5 I believe. Additionally ... I'm also putting down a bit of steering rack kickback in the MK6 Golf GTI and R when striking mid corner lateral ridges to the same extra rigidity and slightly different suspension tune of the MK6 variants over the MK5. The MK5 never had any steering wheel kickback, even with three different suspension tunes I had on my earlier MK5 GTI. It's too early to tell if the new Golf 7 has this issue, but I suspect not based on my initial drive. For details on Sutherland Shire Volkswagen ... just google Sutherland Volkswagen and ask for Sammy. Ray is my neighbour, as you can see from my carsales.com.au advert, I live in Sutherland.

WJ

[WhiteJames]

MK6 Golf GTI –v- Golf 7 GTI: Part II

The Boat Shed Drive

I took the opportunity to re-engage my local dealer re: Golf 7 GTI pricing and issues surrounding corporate pricing. As a result, I decided to take out another new Golf 7 GTI for a test drive from Sutherland along the Boat Shed run, which runs into the nearby Royal National Park. This time the new Golf 7 GTI was an automatic with DSG gearbox.

In this respect, we are comparing apples with apples as my MK6 Golf GTI is DSG auto. Although it’s worth noting that my GTI has genuine Volkswagen Driver Gear Sport Springs that are about 10% firmer than a standard MK6 Golf GTI, which improves handling & agility. As stated before, both GTI’s, new & old, have DCC.

The Boat Shed run is very hilly with lots of tight twists and turns. The drive essentially snakes down into a deep ravine. The roadway texture is a mix of coarse chip bitumen with a few sections layered in smooth fine bitumen. The speed limit is a low 60kph with 80kph on the entry into the National Park and nearby highway. The Boat Shed run will further test the dynamic capabilities of each vehicle, as opposed to the earlier in-city test drive where it was predominantly flat in gradient.

You’re already aware that the Golf 7 GTI is more refined with less roadway noise, the steering is lighter in both Normal and Sport settings, with ride comfort improved to a notable degree over the previous model GTI, and the motor offering greater torque down low and the turbo spooling up in a much more linear fashion.

The Golf 7 GTI was put into Normal mode with steering in normal and DCC dampers in Normal for the drive downwards to the Hacking River low-level bridge. The Golf 7 GTI turns in more easily with less effort than the previous model, and has the driver working with less effort to tip the Golf 7 GTI into corners. The Golf 7 GTI rotates with added ease into corners and carries less under-steer during cornering, with the front tyres biting into the tarmac with greater tenacity and feel.

Once on the power around mid-corner, you can feel the added torque of the Golf 7 GTI new generation dual injection EA888 motor pulling the vehicle out corners. The added torque does cause the driver to feel that the XDS+ to pinch the front inside wheel when powering out of corners. The chassis is more composed & sits flatter during downhill cornering. The added torque down load can have the XDS+ working more notably than the earlier model MK6 Golf GTI, with the earlier MK6 not having the ability to push out of corners as quickly and as effectively, nor maintain such a tight & smooth arc of trajectory.

The DSG version of the new Golf 7 GTI does seem a little less involving and there feels to be a hint greater weight causing some added under-steer when snaking down through the corners compared to what I have experienced earlier the week before in the Manual Transmission Golf 7 version. The Manual Transmission Golf 7 the week before offered greater driver involvement.

I wouldn’t go as far as to say that the new Golf 7 GTI pivots around its centre axis in a near neutral chassis tune. The Golf 7 does steer from the front end, but to a much less degree than the MK6 Golf GTI … with the MK6 Golf GTI at 8/10ths and the new Golf 7 GTI at 9/10ths before XDS steps in to electronically adjust your line.

The driver can definitely feel that the front wheels of the new Golf 7 GTI are further away and that the centre of gravity & roll centre has been improved in the Golf 7 as on the downhill run, with the weight of the motor falling towards the front outside wheel in bends, rather than next to over the front outside wheel as in the case of the MK6 Golf GTI, which creates a sensation that the higher motor and higher CoG chassis of the MK6 wants to pick up the front inside wheel off the ground, causing it to unload & lessen grip levels.

The progressive steering in the Golf 7 GTI makes it easier to cause the chassis to change direction with less effort. It is worth noting that the Boat Shed drive, while tight & twisting, does not have many really tight hairpin corners to negotiate. The progressive steering in the Golf 7 is still better to use, but most of the advantage would be around haripins and more to the point, in everyday city use. The steering the MK6 Golf GTI was far from disgraced on this particular type of roadway, but did require more effort and a greater degree of twisting and hand movement. The older MK6 GTI also required a greater amount of steering and throttle adjustments to maintain a smooth arc around the downhill bends. The new Golf 7 GTI just seems to flow around bends better.

The Golf 7 still exhibited a couple of thumps onto and off the low level concrete bridge at The Boat Shed in Normal DCC mode, similar to the earlier model MK6 Golf GTI, but with less noise entering the cabin. You’re still mindful that your driving a tallish hatchback with not a great amount of spring travel and motor that sits fairly high up in the chassis, especially compared to a sports couple such as the BRZ/86 twins or the Megane RS365 for that matter.

On the return leg heading back up the mountain ravine, I put the Golf 7 GTI in Sport mode, which stiffened up the steering and dampers. I’m am now convinced that the amount of extra weight provided from Normal mode to Sport mode in the Golf 7 is less than that of the MK6 Golf GTI.

Both Normal mode and Sport mode steering in the Golf 7 is lighter than the same steering modes in the MK6 Golf GTI with DCC, and why wouldn’t it be with the progressive steering rack, which in concert with the lighter and more direct steering, inducing greater ease and refinement when punting the Golf 7 GTI around corners. The heavier steering in the MK6 GTI does not provide any greater amount of feel, in fact, the Golf 7 GTI seems to telegraph what the tyres are doing more effectively, despite having lighter steering in all driving modes.

One area of interest in this back to back test is the low laying Boat Shed concrete bridge that runs over the Hacking River. The bridge is sunken down low and there is a mighty large bump as you hook left into an uphill corner back onto terra firma on your ascent up the mountain. This corner simultaneously tests the vehicle’s ability to turn into a corner and manage an upsetting high compression bump, which creates a certain amount of heave in any vehicle chassis, while testing the depth and speed of rebound in the spring/damper package and the suspension’s ability to keep bump steer at bay.

The Golf 7 dishes up less low speed compression & rebound in the damper tune, which creates an improved ride over the earlier model MK6 almost all the time regardless of the surface texture, with less information being filtered from the small roadway imperfections into the chassis and driver/passengers seats & steering wheel.

Smacking the large compression Boat Shed bridge bump shows that the Golf 7 GTI’s high-speed primary big bump compression and rebound damping is greater than what the MK6 Golf GTI offers (with or without DCC). There is a greater firmness in the damper tune in both rebound and compression on large & fast hits during cornering. The MK6 Golf GTI with DCC in Sport felt like the damper/spring package collapsed to a greater degree, taking the edge of the high-speed compression bump at the expense of a less focused turn-in into the corner. I would not say that the older MK6 GTI showed any greater amount of heave with striking the bump on corner entry, but felt less contained taking longer to return to the suspension’s natural state after an upset.

The lighter weight of the Golf 7 GTI with the front wheels poking out further allows for a greater amount of compression & rebound rate in the springs & dampers, creating increased tautness in body control. The MK6 with DG Sport Springs was not embarrassed in the high speed compression big hit on entry to corner in terms of ride comfort, but you could feel that some handling prowess & forward motion had to be compensated when the DCC in Sport mode semi-active dampers softened up the corner entry blow. The thump noise in the chassis body of the Golf 7 was also more muted and turned in a bit sharper telegraphing greater tyre grip info and kept its line tighter, powering out harder with the abundance of low end torque. There was a heap more noise emanating from the undercarriage of the older MK6 Golf GTI.

[WhiteJames]

Powering up the mountain-side in the Golf 7 with the DSG in Sport mode has me thinking that the actual DSG gearbox software mode between Golf 7 and MK6 Sport is tuned to be very similar.

Powering up steep hills is a real test of a motor’s ability to pull forward in addition to the front end bite into, during and out of bends. Although the MK6 Golf GTI has a certain racy soundtrack & feel to it, and the turbo responds more crisply & eagerly, you could tell that the MK6 Golf GTI lacked the low-end instant torque response. The MK6 Golf GTI, seemed to be making more noise, with less forward motion, but feeling more fun doing it and demanding greater driver effort. The MK6 Golf GTI chassis had a greater tendency to understeer providing a continued feeling through bends when pressing on that the inside front wheel wanted to lift off the ground, effecting power down grip and refinement levels.
The front end of the MK6 Golf GTI seems to be dominated by the motor siting higher and further forward of the front axle, which required greater effort from the driver to keep a tight & secure line through the uphill bends. It was definitely more challenging muscling the older MK6 Golf GTI through bends, but ultimately the driver is working harder for less reward in forward motion, whether it be the amount of torque delivery or the less focused chassis footprint and tune.

The Golf 7 GTI when leaned on really hunts for the apex. On several corners, the immediacy of the tip-in into corners caught me by surprise at how pointed the front end of the Golf 7 GTI could be and the mid corner rotation of the chassis reducing understeer and that desire of the MK6 Golf GTI to want to understeer, carrying on outwards from the bends. One minor annoyance with the Golf 7 GTI is that on the uphill run in Sport mode, you could feel the XDS+ pinching the front inside wheel to a greater degree than the MK6 Golf GTI, which felt a greater tendency to allow a bit more slip on the inside front wheel on uphill bends. Part of this is due to the enhanced torque from the Golf 7 motor, but also partly due to the swiftness of progress of that the Golf 7 GTI makes when powering up tight twisting corners.

At times I thought that the PP – GTI limited slip diff could come in handy to smooth out the extra torque of the new dual injection EA888 motor in the Golf 7 GTI. I wouldn’t go as far to say that for driving on the public roadway at public roadway speeds that the PP – GTI limited slip differential would be required to actually propel the vehicle out of the corner a great deal faster than a standard GTI … rather, the LSD in the PP – GTI would make the pull out of corners more seem-less without the tug on the inside front wheel brake that the XDS+ has a tendency to do. In contrast, the MK6 Golf GTI with DG Sport Springs is too busy getting its act together traversing up steep gradients in terms of less chassis focus & less power output of the older motor not troubling the XDS pseudo electronic diff as nearly as much in the MK6 Golf GTI. The XDS+ in the new Golf 7 GTI seems to be tuned to be more proactive when powering out of bends.

Be mindful that my GTI handles these roadways much better than a DCC MK6 GTI on standard Golf GTI springs.

Pulling uphill, the older MK6 GTI still manages to telegraph more of the roadway surface to the driver in terms of suspension damping on minor roadway blemishes and bumps. This makes the ride feel rougher on the MK6. The overall rigidity of the chassis, bushes, spring & damper combo in the new Golf 7 GTI seems to translate the grip levels of what the tyres are doing on the bitumen, which in concert with the progressive steering system, adds greater confidence for the driver to push on. Going uphill always had the older MK6 GTI feeling like the front end was going to wash-out, whereas the new Golf 7 GTI seemed to use the front end grip more purposefully and with greater purchase, sticking harder for longer until higher 350Nm of torque on power out application gives a bit of a XDS+ purposeful proactive pinch on corner exit.

The MK6 Golf GTI is fun because is it more ragged to muscle around these hills, alternatively … the Golf 7 GTI is also fun because it is so focused in how it goes about covering ground, pointing into and out of bends with a greater amount of sharpness & ease. The MK6 Golf GTI scores well with loads of character but loses points for being ultimately less effective. The Golf 7 GTI loses points for a less enthralling power delivery, which is much more linear in building thrust, without any crescendo, peak or trough in the rev range, but scores well for covering ground effectively and greater amount of mechanical grip of its tyres and chassis.

Out on the Princes Highway between Wollongong and The Sutherland Shire, I put both EA888 motors to the tractability test.

Both DSG auto gearboxes in 6th gear at 70kph with slight throttle application to see which pulls more effectively. The MK6 Golf GTI responded with greater eagerness, which I put down to perhaps the lower gearing and the faster spooling direct injection MK6 motor. The Golf 7 GTI seems to lumber along, not showing much if any evidence at all of responding to the light throttle increase and feeling very much like an older school port injected motor. The MK6 Golf GTI feels as if it can hold higher gear ratios at lower speeds. The Manual Transmission Golf 7 GTI apparently has even taller ratio for 6th gear, but this should benefit fuel economy in the right circumstances, although as an owner, I’d be inclined to keep the Golf 7 GTI in a lower gear ratio to keep the motor spinning more freely, perhaps negating some of the perceived added fuel economy of the Golf 7.

After driving the DSG auto Golf 7 GTI I pondered a few issues:

The Manual Transmission Golf 7 GTI seems to be the more engaging & sweeter drive for most of the time. The DSG auto Golf 7, on this route did not show my older MK6 Golf GTI with DCC on VW Driver Gear Sport Springs a clean pair of heels. That extra bit of weight up front and apparently slightly stiffer front springs to accommodate the extra weight of the DSG auto in the Golf 7 GTI has blunted a bit of that turn-in eagerness that the Manual Trans Golf 7 GTI offered.

The PP – GTI with proper mechanical limited slip front differential (Haldex Plate Type) would provide a more seem-less drive with added effectiveness in ability to pull out of corners with no interruption, a definite benefit for the racetrack or anything above 8/10ths driving … but having driven both DSG and Manual Transmission standard Golf 7 GTI’s, I can’t help but feel that the extra weight of the PP – GTI would blunt chassis agility, chassis balance, steady state grip levels and initial tip-in into corners based on having driven the standard spec Golf 7 GTI in Manual and DSG Auto.

The Golf 7 R is likely to be only a bit heavier than the PP – GTI and with the absence of the weight of the LSD at the front end, coupled with extra weight in the rear end (i.e. rear differential) for greater balance for not a lot more money. This could be a realistic alternative. I cannot see too many drivers using the PP – GTI nor the Golf 7 R’s added grip levels in day to day driving. The DSG auto Golf 7 GTI is a definite improvement over my previous model MK6 Golf GTI, even with DCC and genuine Volkswagen Driver Gear Sport Springs fitted to the older MK6 GTI.

Whether you’re trading up from MK6 to MK7 Golf GTI, eyeing off the PP – GTI or have your heart set on the forthcoming AWD Golf 7 R … when it comes to comparing different types of Volkswagen Golfs, sometimes you don’t get to have your cake and eat it too.

WJ

[MIRSAD]

Thank you WJ