MK6 -v- MK7 : Golf GTI

[tonymy01]

? EA888 is in both MK6 and MK7 GTI. the only 2l turbo mk6 that doesn't have it is Golf R and ED35 GTI (both with K04 turbo) which have the older donk, because they were worried about strength at the time for the higher boost/HP outputs of the R&ED35. Of course the mk7 refines the ea888 further though..

[WhiteJames]

Not all EA888 motors are created equal:

The revised EA888 in the Golf 7 GTI is lighter, has different internals, plastic sump, a completely new head with turbine exhaust manifold incorporated into the head complete with water jackets for cooling. From a drivability perspective, the doughiness, lack of urgency and less eagerness in the mid range would be due to the fuelling as apparently the new Golf 7 EA888 motor runs on port injection in the mid range.

This allows the GTI (R/S3) to run higher gearing for better fuel economy on the highway. The direct injection is primarily used on start up, down low and up high in the rev-range where fuel is metered out in a more precise fashion. The port injection in the mid-range make the new EA888 in the Golf 7 GTI feel like the older EA113 motor with old-school fuelling system & two lob cam fuel pump actuator (MK6 GTI has a four lob cam actuator) ... the Golf 7 also feels like the Megane RS265 that has port injection ... i.e. the fueling system & throttle response is less precise -v- the earlier direct-injection only MK6 GTI. The direct injection MK6 GTI has this motor running higher in the rev range on the highway, which of course uses more fuel.

On a side note:

How good is the new electronic park brake and hill-hold function. On an uphill gradient at the intersection of Foreshore Drive & Beauchamp Street, I hit the hill hold function and once the lights changed, simply drive away with no fuss or drama. No need to press any button, just simply let out the clutch and drive away.

The hill-hold function, great manual transmission gear-change shifter, added fuel economy, less weight esp. over the front axle, and slightly more visceral drive make the Manual Transmission Golf 7 GTI appealing. Pity Volkswagen won't do a special order standard manual trans with PP LSD only.

Dealer also mentioned that the PP - GTI haldex limited slip different adds not only more weight to the vehicle, about 60kgs with bundled options, but extra complexity. If you have concerns about the longevity of the DSG gearbox and megatronics unit, the PP - GTI doubles this issue with extra moving parts, control modules and electronics for the electro mechanical LSD in the PP-GTI. More moving parts makes a greater chance of something going wrong.

WJ

[WhiteJames]

Golf 7 GTI –v- MK6 Golf R

A discussion has arisen when having coffee with neighbor Ray as to whether the new Golf 7 GTI is comparable to the previous model MK6 Golf R as an ownership proposition.

As stated earlier, Ray purchased a low-mileage near new Golf R almost fully loaded, but no DCC. This includes the 19” wheels, sunroof, satnav, pretty much every option bar race seats & DCC setting him back a few grand below 60K.

Firstly, I must say that the improvement from the MKV Golf GTI to MK6 Golf GTI involved a number of small revisions and additions that equated to a sum greater than each individual minor upgrade. This and the new less maintenance intensive hard punching fast spooling EA888 motor in the MK6 made a convincing case to upgrade from the MK5 to the MK6, despite each having the same basic chassis (MK6 chassis is actually stiffer in the rear end than MKV).

Ray has been bitching about the ride quality of his MK6 Golf R on 19” wheels with no DCC when driven on crap Sydney roadways. His previous ride was the MKV R32. Large bumps thumping through the chassis of the MK6 Golf R into the cabin, a terse low speed ride comfort and the B-pillar rattle when striking large single wheel bumps due to a bit of chassis flex are common complaints. Especially on the 19” wheels.

The new Golf 7 GTI does not involve a lot of minor updates, but a great leap in terms of improved chassis footprint and therefore agility, torsional rigidity and chassis stiffness, noise suppression, XDS+ calibration and ride refinement.

Yes … the MK6 Golf R is AWD, which does count for a lot.

The media reports that the new Golf 7 GTI is comparable to the Golf R in terms of performance ... and in some reports ... actually better than the MK6 Golf R, which is entirely believable.

The more focused Golf 7 GTI that rolls and pitches less than the MK6 Golf R, is more fluid and easier to steer and drive, with lighter weight and improved proactive electronic XDS+ and rear wheel braking make the Golf 7 GTI a better choice as from a driver and ownership perspective. I would go as far to say that from an ownership proposition, even if Ray’s almost fully loaded MY13 MK6 Golf R for 58K was the same price as the Golf 7 GTI (44K), I’d still be opting for the Golf 7 GTI as it's just a more focussed drive that is able to cover ground far more effectively with less driver input & effort than the MK6 R.

The feeling having the MK Golf R motor hanging further out over the front axle, making it feel like a heavier wheelbarrow to muscle into corners re: under-steer and mid corner balance, the extra effort required to steer the MK6 Golf R, and the fact that the springs, sway bars and dampers do not effectively contain the pitch & roll of the smaller chassis footprint that now feels top and front heavy & much less focused & less fluid with less ride comfort, XDS system that is now antiquated, extra weight and KO4 turbo lag has me leaning to the Golf 7 GTI as the pick over the MK6 Golf R for the same money.

Every cloud has a silver lining:

The Golf 7 GTI on the MQB platform bodes extremely well for the upcoming Audi S3/Golf R, which will be a seriously rapid and focused vehicle.

Ray may boost that he has all the bells & whistles in terms of options on the outgoing MK6 Golf R, but all the complaints he has about the Golf R are dramatically reduced or eliminated in the Golf 7 version.

It also has me thinking that the Golf 7 GTI on 19” wheels, not the sexiest wheels I’ve every laid my eyes upon, will ride reasonably well. The Golf 7 GTI PP on 19” will definitely ride better than the MK6 Golf GTI on 18” wheels … for sure. Concerns that the 19” wheels on the PP – GTI Golf 7 will have it riding like an absolute beatch may well be unfounded.

Still not convinced about the extra weight over the front axle and overall on the PP – GTI. I’m sure that the PP _ GTI will run stiffer springs to compensate for (1) Extra weight of DSG; (2) Extra weight of the Haldex LSD. Obviously this will affect initial turn-into corners and agility to a degree.

For the time being, I’ve advised Ray, and other potential MK6 Golf R owners to sample Golf 7 GTI, which out in the real world, in the dry or slightly damp conditions, will no about cover ground as effectively if not more effectively than the outgoing MK6 Golf R.

I guess the Golf is really like the 911 Porsche … it is evolving into a much more rapid, focused, easier vehicle to drive & steer, with the added benefit of an improvements in ride refinement, which only adds to its appeal as an ownership proposition.

WJ

[zoomda]

Yes … the MK6 Golf R is AWD, which does count for a lot.

The media reports that the new Golf 7 GTI is comparable to the Golf R in terms of performance ... and in some reports ... actually better than the MK6 Golf R, which is entirely believable.

It's entirely wrong. The Mk6 R eats the MK7 GTI for breakfast. I drove both back to back and the R felt a lot quicker. Both off the line (which was expected thanks to AWD) but also in gear.

To back that up the latest Wheel magazine tested the 7 GTI DSG. 0-100 was 6.5secs and the 400m was 14.5secs. That's only 0.1 seconds quicker than the MK6 GTI.

The R on the other hand has been tested by Motor magazine at 5.4 secs and 13.6secs. That's not comparable, that's a significant difference.

[Mountainman]

It's entirely wrong. The Mk6 R eats the MK7 GTI for breakfast. I drove both back to back and the R felt a lot quicker. Both off the line (which was expected thanks to AWD) but also in gear.

To back that up the latest Wheel magazine tested the 7 GTI DSG. 0-100 was 6.5secs and the 400m was 14.5secs. That's only 0.1 seconds quicker than the MK6 GTI.

The R on the other hand has been tested by Motor magazine at 5.4 secs and 13.6secs. That's not comparable, that's a significant difference.

Look at Wheels again and you'll see the GTI 7 0-100 time was 6.4, not 6.5. Wheels also tested the 3 door manual Golf R in March 2011 at 0-100 6.4 and 0-400m in 14.4. Doesn't seem to be much in it looking at those figures.

Both a long way off what Wheels got in a bog standard WRX in July 2011 too. How about 0-100 in 5.4 and 0-400m in 13.9? All for $39990 - yeah, cheap and a bit nasty but a real animal to drive at times.

[zoomda]

Look at Wheels again and you'll see the GTI 7 0-100 time was 6.4, not 6.5. Wheels also tested the 3 door manual Golf R in March 2011 at 0-100 6.4 and 0-400m in 14.4. Doesn't seem to be much in it looking at those figures.

Both a long way off what Wheels got in a bog standard WRX in July 2011 too. How about 0-100 in 5.4 and 0-400m in 13.9? All for $39990 - yeah, cheap and a bit nasty but a real animal to drive at times.

You are right, it was 6.4.

As for the Wheels R test in 2011. That was for a manual, not a DSG. Motors test was DSG which is why I used their time.

A DSG Golf R will walk away from a WRX. The shift times are just so much quicker than a manual.

[Brendan_A]

The R on the other hand has been tested by Motor magazine at 5.4 secs and 13.6secs. That's not comparable, that's a significant difference.

Go check the 1/4 mile thread. 13.6 is more like a stage 1 R mate.

[Mutch1983]

I certainly haven’t driven the new GTI but I have driven theMk6 R {great car} so personally I wouldn’t know but I have to agree that the media has suggested that the GTI {especially in PP form}, is a match for the outgoing R.

There is little doubt that the R will smash the GTI in the traffic light derby and power down out of tight corners but of course performance also encompasses mid range and cornering ability and the new GTI seems pretty good in these areas.
In the Wheels test that you mentioned they actually got a ‘Megane’ like 3.4 for the 80-120km time which was half a second quicker than Motor Magazine got for their manual R in their 2010 BFYB test and even faster than Wheels got for the MK6 GTI. Yep, I know different test conditions and drivers but it suggests that the GTI’s chassis, engine, traction and weight improvements have affected performance significantly.

As for track performance ‘Sport auto’ a German based magazine that routinely track tests found that that the Mk 7 GTI PP was around asecond slower than the time they got for a MK6 R around Hockenheim Short {tight track} but five seconds faster than the time they got for a MK6 R around the Nurburgring. Once again different test conditions make the reliability of the results debateable. More significant isthe fact that at the launch of the Mk7 Golf R in Frankfurt, VAG officials were informing the press that the new R was 15 seconds faster around the Nurburgring than the old Mk 6 R and 11 seconds quicker than their fastest time for the new GTI PP.

Zoomba, you’d know better than me having driven booth but Iagree with WhiteJames in that the media has suggested that at least performance wise the new GTI is competitive with the outgoing R

[WhiteJames]

My MK6 Golf GTI with DG Sport Springs, which ties down the GTI more so than a GTI with stock springs, makes the MK6 GTI feel slower. Despite the DG Sport Spring upgrade to my GTI, the MK6 GTI felt faster than the Golf 7 GTI. This is due to the MK6 GTI chassis having much less composure and the motor tuned to feel more urgent, crisp and eager.

The Golf 7 GTI is just far more composed in a straight line and around bends … a sign of a competent chassis. Not only do you have the improved chassis architecture … the Golf 7 GTI runs improved dampers with anti lift-off rebound properties for extra stability.

Factor in improved front and rear wheel XDS+ torque and brake vectoring, the lighter weight that is less taxing on brakes & tyres, an EA888 motor with more low-down instant punch that is less likely to be caught off boost, more direct steering requiring much less effort, less pitch & roll with a more composed & stiffer chassis that sits flatter during turns with less tenancy to push into understeer around tight bends … and I’m still betting out in the real world that for majority of drivers that the Golf 7 GTI will at least keep pace if not be quicker than the MK6 Golf R.

That added composure & refinement incorporated in the Golf 7 MQB chassis may makes it feel like your travelling slower, when in actual fact your travelling faster and having to lift off a lot less in and out of bends to counter any understeer.

Remember that the MK6 Golf R motor sits further forward and higher relative to the rest of the vehicle, making it harder to cajole and keep the front end into corners, esp tighter & narrower corners out on public roadways.

If it were a track battle at somewhere like Eastern Creek Raceway or Phillip Island, then I’d have my money on the MK6 Golf R as the faster vehicle … without a doubt.

But driving on public roadways that are narrower, tighter and with added gradient, I reckon the Golf 7 GTI would be the one to go for. The AWD will not compensate for an inherently understeer biased chassis tune of the MK6 Golf R.

I’m not arguing for or against AWD as I initially suggested to Ray that he wait out some time and upgrade to the Audi S3 or perhaps the Golf 7 R due to their lighter weight, more competent chassis & stiffer chassis and improved XDS+ electronics package. Ray likes his bells & whistles, which would result in a 75K Audi S3, which is a lot to pay cash for a smallish hatchback.

I thought the DSG standard trim Audi S3 Sportback for about 68K would have been a better choice than a 58K almost fully loaded slightly used MK6 Golf R. Ray has invited me to test drive the Audi S3 and perhaps the Golf 7 R with him. Once he drives the MQB platform, he may well want to upgrade again, but at a considerable loss if he sells his current MK6 golf R. He also wants me to run a loop in his current MK6 Golf R to assess the impact noise when striking certain bumps in the roadway that he normally travels re: stiffer & firmer ride & chassis flex … now he would be less likely to have this issue if he waited for the new Audi S3 or Golf 7 R or Golf 7 GTI for that matter as the MQB platform has much superior ride comfort & refinement.

For me, the Golf GTI is plenty fast and capable for real world driving and the level of standard kit sufficient for my needs.

WJ

[zoomda]

Go check the 1/4 mile thread. 13.6 is more like a stage 1 R mate.

I've used times recorded by the major magazines simply because it is something anyone can look up. Different temps, cars, drivers and other conditions will skew the results of the course. But for the purpose of comparing the VII GTI and VI R it is suitable.

The VII GTI is more powerful and lighter than the previous model. So far though it's 0-100 and 400m times aren't much better than the VI GTI. I'm sure it would be quicker in gear and when compared to an R then it might be more comparable. But for the most common straight line performance tests it just isn't a match for the VI R.

There was also comparison here between a manual R and DSG GTI. You really have to compare DSG to DSG. There is no launch control in the manual so that skews the results further.

Both of these cars ran a very slow time but the R still wins by a significant amount:-