Engineer's certificate for remap ?

[Guy_H]

I once had a situation where I changed my car's wheels from stock 14x5.5 inch to 15x6.5 inch. Before I did so, I checked the relevant Victorian legislation. Basically, it allows one to increase the width of wheels by a maximum of 1 inch provided the resulting track is not increased by more than half an inch. In my case, the new wheels were one inch wider with the same offset as the wheels they replaced. In short, perfectly legal.

I ring up my insurance company and dutifully advised them of the mod which I am required to do. They refused to insure me! Their rules state you can't increase wheel width by 1/2 and inch. No amount of telling them that my car still complied with the rules would sway them. In the end, I ended up insuring with RACV. They were not fussed about the mod.

Modifying a car within allowable regs, or getting your mods signed off by an engineer is fine but getting the resulting modified car (legal or not) insured may be your biggest problem.

This one is easily enforced as its an easy thing to measure & as I understand it is enforced in all states pretty easily. QLD transport have a written guide on this.

I know for a fact that up here RACQ & NRMA insurance companies are the least "mod" friendly ones. It looks like RACV might be similar.

[Transporter]

Generalising on how the same vehicle can run on the same brand dyno in different places on the same day & the results can vary 30%. Say you have a dyno dynamics dyno with shootout mode (supposed to equalize, but never does) and you tie down the same way. If you add 10nm extra to the tie strap, you can reduce the output of the vehicle by 5 or 10% - that is just one variable of dozens associated with dyno's (and proven multiple times). Simple - this is almost impossible to measure, and more impossible to enforce.

I did not say anything about failing an emission test & and proving KW - two different issues, but both could be included in the "code".

As I mentioned, we have spoken & met with the "rule makers" & "rule enforcers" & have a good understanding of the principal & intent of the "Code" document. I suggest you do likewise & telephone them if you do not believe me or understand what I am saying.

You missed emission problem I know that many vehicles have after exhaust treatment but you still get emissions from the exaust pipe.

[CatonaPC©]

Common things like wheels look like they have an "allowable" change without a restest required . . .

I'm thinking coils, intake, exhaust, turbo, ecu ??

The Victorian regs deal with a few modification issues and states limits. Including lowering; eg you cannot cut coils to lower the car.

[CatonaPC©]

I know for a fact that up here RACQ & NRMA insurance companies are the least "mod" friendly ones. It looks like RACV might be similar.

No, RACV is "mod" friendly. They insured my car without an concerns about the wheels. The modification was noted on the insurance certificate and it didn't affect the premium.

GIO/Suncorp and AAMI have the 1/2 inch wheel widening limit.

[Guy_H]

You know I thought a little more about his earlier and CatonaPC© has come close to what I was thinking when it comes to standards.


* We all agree there are ADR standards we have to meet.
* When a new car is brought onto the market it is tested to be within the standards.

When you modify a car you are deviating from what the manufacturer had tested and certified, while you may still be within the ADR, how do you prove it?

Common things like wheels look like they have an "allowable" change without a restest required and I would suggest that many other things do too. What I do wonder is if there is an exhaustive list (or even a basic list) of common upgrades/changes and their engineers certificate requirements.

I'm thinking coils, intake, exhaust, turbo, ecu ??

This is correct - now one must remember that the ADR standards (in this context) covers NEW VEHICLES COMPLIANCE & CONSTRUCTION and thats where a lot of confusion is. New vehicle compliance is a Federal issue (Commonwealth Law) - the rest, after the vehicle has been sold falls under state law, and thats where the grey area is.

The "code" is not an ADR. The ADR is used as a reference point, and importantly you can not remove or make non functional things that are required by the ADR.

I have been involved in the "Beach Buggy" building (VW Manx buggy & Similar), and also involved in the transition form old buggies to new buggies - a new buggy must meet & exceed certain ADR's, where an original buggy built pre 82' requires next to nothing.

Just for interest sake, this is a list of some of the ADR's that cover that.

http://rvcs-prodweb.dot.gov.au/ADRS.html

Unfortunately I don't think you will find the answer (a common list of vehicle modifications that require certification) - certainly here in QLD we have this lovely brochure from QLD Transport that we keep in the office:

http://www.transport.qld.gov.au/reso..._vehicles2.pdf

I wonder if they have them for the other states?

[gregozedobe]

......here in QLD we have this lovely brochure from QLD Transport that we keep in the office:

http://www.transport.qld.gov.au/reso..._vehicles2.pdf

Thanks for that info Guy.

On page 4 of the Qld "Modifications" booklet under the heading Fuel systems it says-
"Powerchips, multiple and/or replacement carburettors may be fitted to any motor vehicle provided the vehicle continues to comply with the emission requirements of the Australian Design Rules applicable at the time of the vehicle’s manufacture."

As it specifically says "Powerchips" then I would think that clearly includes ECU remaps (not an outrageous assumption). So after a remap, the car would still have to comply with the emission ADRs that applied to the car when it was new.

In the ACT they don't require a full retest of emission ADRs, only a short form of emission testing (done on a warm engine) that is called an "IM240" test, done on a dyno (not available in the ACT, but I am told there are two locations in Sydney that can do the test).

Do you know if any Australian vendors have done any emission testing (ADRs, IM240 or something else) as part of their Australian R & D of their remaps to suit the current VAG 2.0 TFSI motor, and if they have what were the results ?

I wonder if they have them for the other states?

In the ACT they refer you directly to the federal web page with the VSBs that I linked to earlier (a much more demanding read than the Qld booklet).


Thanks,

Greg C

[Guy_H]

Hey Greg,

Correct,

We certainly have, and recently did it with the 2.0TFSI components as well - this was not for general sale to the public, it was a special case for a manufacturer using our software for a form of production racing. I will see if we can use these documents as a sample.

We have also supplied the TUV certificates on emissions from Germany on that particular (Oettinger) tuning to several customers who required it, and it was used as "meets or exceeds" the Australian standard (one was in Canberra).

I can not speak for anyone else.

I suppose a "custom tune" would be even tougher again!

[gregozedobe]

Thanks again Guy,

If the ACT rego people are satisfied with that sort of documentation then I even may be able to avoid the need for an engineers certificate. I will contact you directly for details of what you have for my Skoda.

[PirelliAC]

OK Pirelli AC, I will continue be polite and refrain from swearing

What evidence can you offer to contradict what the ACT rego man told me, aside from your obviously strongly held belief (wish ?) that it should be the way you want it to be ?

I have talked to the person in my state who actually oversights registration of modified vehicles, AFAIK there isn't anyone who can over-ride his opinion on these matters. Just because you don't like it, didn't know about it, or can point to lots of people who are also doing the same or similar things doesn't make it legal (it's a bit like being booked for speeding, none of the above excuses will get you off).

Remember I am talking about what is legal (technically and actually), not what is illegal but hasn't been discovered and prosecuted (just because no one has bothered to do anything about it yet or it is too hard to discover).

Also, I am not saying that a lot of these mods (eg remaps, exhausts) would fail the relevant tests, simply that they are illegal because they haven't been tested and certified.

For your guidance I'll give you a few quotes from the Vehicle Standards Bulletins (NCOP) documentation, which seems to be the official line on this matter according to the appropriate registration authorities -

http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roa...tion/bulletin/

VSB 14 National Code of Practice for Light Vehicle Construction and Modification (NCOP). (NB any typos are mine, I couldn't cut and paste from the original document ).

In the Engine Modifications Code LA4 section.

Page 28
"The modified vehicle must continue to comply with all applicable ADRs, VSRs, VSBs, Acts and Regulations."

"Gaseous Emmissions: ADR 27, 30, 36, 37, 40, 70, 79
External Noise: ADR 28, 83"

Page 29
"SPECIFIC REQUIREMENTS
Engine modifications such as changes to engine management systems.....have the capacity to to substantially increase a vehicle's power and performance and are generally considered on the same basis as a performance engine conversion with a safety upgrade required."

I think a remap may just be classed as "changes to engine mangament systems".

page 31
Checklist
"3.1 If power has increased by more than 20%, has the vehicle been upgraded to comply with specific requirements outlined above in Code LA4"

IIRC correctly most remap vendors claim more than a 20% increase in power for their turbo remaps.

From what I've read it isn't a grey area at all. It seems to me that remapping IS a modification covered by these NCOP requirements (ie emission testing and an engineers certificate. I'd be happy to be PROVEN wrong, but against the official literature I have seen to date any refuting evidence will need to be a pretty compelling.

FWIW the main concern of the guy from rego was that ALL cars comply with the relevant ADRs, modified or not.

I'm starting to feel like the new bloke in the Kingdom who has dared to point out that the emperor's new clothes don't actually cover up his ugly body

I know and understand that many people are happy to remap but not tell their registration authority (and usually their dealer), and often not their insurers as well, and that they are very unlikely to be found out. And that some weren't even aware that they might be doing something illegal.

However, I like to do things by the book, particularly if there is potentially a very high cost to being caught out. In doing my pre-purchase research for remapping I think I have discovered a serious problem, at least for a risk-averse person like me.

I agree with nismo23, if you are going to remap (or have done it already) and haven't gone the official testing and certification route, you should remove all publically available information that might suggest your car has been remapped.

ok i stand corrected, but this is still horse ****e!! Really we need to be focusing on the people operating these cars not the cars themselves!!

[gregozedobe]

....., but this is still horse ****e!! Really we need to be focusing on the people operating these cars not the cars themselves!!

I agree. The most dangerous part on any car has always been the "nut behind the wheel".

Unfortunately it is very difficult to make a real change in attitude to the people who need it the most. That's why we end up with so many unsatisfactory "lowest common denominator" solutions (eg blanket speed limits set for heavy trucks, strict rules on modifying cars etc).