a car repair issue - timing belt, valve & rings

[flat26a]

I have a dispute with a dealer about a car repair. As I know nothing about the car and engine, can someone tell me what I should / can do in below case? Sorry the post is long!

For privacy reason, I hide the dealer’s name for now. I will see how things go and disclose the dealer’s name if needed. The service centre is the manufacturer authorised dealer’s service centre.

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Background:

1. I have a 2007 Jetta 2.0TDI with odometer reading 230,000kms.

1. The car has been running very well and regular services has been conducted in the past.

1. I was advised in 2019 that it is time to change the timing belt as the car reached 200,000kms. There were no any other issues with the car.

1. On 13 December 2019, the dealer’s service centre replaced the timing belt and conducted other regular maintenance at the cost of over $2400. There was no any issues identified during the service.

1. After I took my car back and during the first drive, I noticed that the hand brake was not smooth when I release it. I didn’t pay much attention to it as I believe the dealer’s service centre should conducted professional works and have checked my car properly.

1. On 11 Jan 2020, which is just within one month after the timing belt was changed, my car broke down on the road when I was driving. The engine suddenly made terrible noise while I was driving, so I had to pull it to the side road.

1. RACV roadside assistance mechanician attended the scene. After assessment, the mechanician believed something is wrong with the timing belt. He issued a report that “Terrible noise in timing belt area” and advised me to contact the service centre who replaced the timing belt, as he believes the issue was related to timing belt.

1. RACV towed my car to the dealer’s service centre on the same day. As the dealer’s service centre was closed when the car was towed there, I backed there on 15 Jan 2020 and gave the key to them.

1. Since 15 Jan 2020, I contacted the dealer’s service centre several times but they haven’t started to check my car, until 23 Jan 2020.

1. On 25 Jan 2020, the dealer’s service centre called me after they checked the engine. They told me that the issue was caused by two broken rings in the engine (see photo). They told me that the engine needs to be cleaned by another place and it will cost $2200 in total to fix the car. They didn’t mention that there are any other issues with the engine or the car.

1. On 31 Jan 2020, after double confirming with the service centre that the repair cost is $2200 and the car will back to work after the repair, I asked the service centre to start the repair. This decision was based on the understanding that the car will be fixed and will back to work.

1. A week after the dealer’s service centre called me again and said that the engine was sent to another place for cleaning but that cleaning place increased the fee so they have to pass the increase ($500) to me. Based on the trust to the brand, I agreed on the additional cost of $500, with the understanding that the car will be fixed soon. the dealer’s service centre promised the car will be ready by 13 Feb 2020.

1. Since then, I followed up with the dealer’s service centre every a few days but always been told that “we just need a couple of days to check and fix”.

1. On 18 Feb 2020, the dealer’s service centre texted me and said the rings have been changed but the car still can’t run. He said the fuel injectors need to be changed and it will cost additional $4700 to change the fuel injectors.

1. As there was no any issues were identified with the fuel injectors before and they quoted me to fix the car at the total cost of $2200 (later increased to $2700), I don’t think the additional $4700 should be paid by me.

1. On 25 Feb 2020, on behalf of me, a very experienced car mechanician called the dealer’s service centre to better understand the issues. This time, the service centre told the mechanician that the valve in the engine was bent. From experience, the mechanician asked the service centre “how could the valve bent in the engine? The valve only bent when the timing belt was not fitted correctly”. The service centre could not answer the question but just keep saying “it just bent”.

1. This is the first time we heard that the valve was bent. The dealer’s service centre never mention that to us before.

1. From the two mechanician’s experience and assessment, they both believe the broken down was related to the timing belt, which was changed within 30 days ago.

Questions:

1. Do you think there was issues with the timing belt and thus caused the valve bent and the whole issue?

1. Why the dealer’s service centre first only told us the issue was caused by two broken rings? Were they trying to hide something?

1. If the two broken rings were the main issue, is $2700 a reasonable price for changing two broken rings and cleaning the engine (is it needed)?

Seek Advice:
Now we told the dealer that we can give the car (with 1 year old tow bar, 1 month old battery) to them for free but we are not going to pay the $2700 as the car was not repaired as promised and we believe there was problems with them changing the timing belt. However the dealer insist that we need to pay the $2700. Is this a reasonable request? What should we do the next?

Any information / advice is highly appreciated!

[Lucas_R]

Sounds to me that either....

1) The timing belt was installed incorrectly and the timing was out causing damage to the valve(s).

2) The timing belt and/or tensioner/bearing/idler/water pump etc failed prematurely (or was not installed correctly) causing the sudden noise and breakdown several weeks after having the work done.

Note that with option 1 above that if the belt was installed incorrectly i would have expected the following to have happened which you would have noticed:

- Damage to have occurred earlier than it did and/or possible noise from valve hitting the piston.
- Car to have felt sluggish to drive as timing was out.

Sounds like a mess unfortunately and lots of money coming out of your pocket for a car that is lucky to be worth $8k being 13 years old with 200+Kms. I would grab an engine from a wrecker to get it moving again and either sell it or keep driving it until it dies.

Also, please stop taking cars that are well out of warranty to a VW dealership to be serviced. You are paying absolute top dollar for an old car to be worked on by an apprentice mechanic. You will save hundreds going to an independent VW specialist mechanic and in the vast majority of cases, get a better level of service.

[tyr382]

Check your error codes for miss fires or anything related to the engine.
I’m putting it down to wrong tensioner ailment.
Surely they lined up the timing correctly?


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[flat26a]

Sounds to me that either....

1) The timing belt was installed incorrectly and the timing was out causing damage to the valve(s).

2) The timing belt and/or tensioner/bearing/idler/water pump etc failed prematurely (or was not installed correctly) causing the sudden noise and breakdown several weeks after having the work done.

Note that with option 1 above that if the belt was installed incorrectly i would have expected the following to have happened which you would have noticed:

- Damage to have occurred earlier than it did and/or possible noise from valve hitting the piston.
- Car to have felt sluggish to drive as timing was out.

Sounds like a mess unfortunately and lots of money coming out of your pocket for a car that is lucky to be worth $8k being 13 years old with 200+Kms. I would grab an engine from a wrecker to get it moving again and either sell it or keep driving it until it dies.

Also, please stop taking cars that are well out of warranty to a VW dealership to be serviced. You are paying absolute top dollar for an old car to be worked on by an apprentice mechanic. You will save hundreds going to an independent VW specialist mechanic and in the vast majority of cases, get a better level of service.

Thank you very much for that!

On 29 Feb 2020, we backed to the service centre and saw some paperwork there. We saw a “quote” dated 24 Jan 2020 with below cost (Note this quote was never sent to me before, all communication was verbally about “broken rings”)

• VW-036109675A Seal Valve Melb $25.94 * 16pcs = $377.28
• VW-03G109601B Inlet Valve Germ $94.60 * 8pcs = $688.00
• VW-03G109611D Exhaust Valve $94.60 * 8pcs = $688.00
• Plus tax = 1928.60

I believe plus the labour, it is the original price $2200 the dealer asked on 25 Jan 2020. However, there was no rings mentioned in this quote?

When the dealer called me on 25 Jan, he told me that the problem was with two broken rings – he never mentioned "valve" prior to our technician called him on 25 Feb 2020. Also when he called me on 25 Jan, he said the engine needed to be cleaned as the broken rings might have small pieces in the engine and later he increased the price to $2700 as the “engine cleaning supplier increased their price”, however, I can’t see any “cleaning” cost from above quote?

On 29 Feb 2020, we also saw a “quote” dated 24 Jan 2020 for below. However, the dealer never mentioned “Cylinder Head” or “cost of $3820” to me!

• VW-03G103264FX Cylinder Head Germ $3820.30 * 1pc = $3820.30

If the service centre mentioned on 25 Jan 2020 there is additional cost of $3800, definitely I will not ask him to repair the car as the cost will be $2200+$3800=$6000. He only told me the cost will be $2200 (even increased to $2700 later). Why he didn’t tell me about the $3800 on 25 Jan 2020?

We believe the dealer was trying to hide their mistakes and didn't tell us the truth about the car. I lodged a complaint to VW Australia and now is waiting for feedback / investigation from them. Will keep this updated once there is any progress.

[flat26a]

Check your error codes for miss fires or anything related to the engine.
I’m putting it down to wrong tensioner ailment.
Surely they lined up the timing correctly?


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The car has been with the dealer for more than 45 days so we can't check the error code now... we used to trust the dealer a lot so the car was towed back to them... we should tow the car to another place...

[Lucas_R]

So something is obviously wrong / broken in the head of the engine, because that's where the intake valves, exhaust valves and valve stem seals all are which are mentioned in your post above.

Ask for a more technical explanation of "broken rings" because it is extremely vague.

I would still be looking for either a 2nd hand head or complete engine and getting it back on the road at the lowest price possible. I would also be looking at having the car taken somewhere else (tow truck).

[tyr382]

When you say ring are you referring to the piston ring? Because I highly doubt that’s the case.
If your rings where on it’s way put you would definitely be showing signs of that being burning oil, loss of power, rough running, error codes, the list goes on. But iv never known a bad ring bending a valve.
Only things I’ve come across in regarding bent valves are incorrect timing belt installation, broken belt, incorrect cam specs and so on.
If they have replaced the timing belt and all of a sudden you have a bent valve,I’d definitely put it down to faulty installation.



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