2010 MkII Scout 103TDI towball query

[Skooter]

Just managed to finally log in. Thanks to all the informed replies.

I'm still a little puzzled by the concept that towball weight is set in stone and A WDH won't modify that - I've towed a 'makeshift' camper trailer before, laden and unladen, and I loaded it in such a way that the ball weight was not excessive.

Our Scout is rated to tow 1600kg braked, so a van weighing 960kg unladen will unlikely ever hit that limit even loaded to the gunnels. SO what happens to ball weight if part of the balance making up the ATM is rear of the van axle? I haven't had time to read the articles posted (many thanks!!) but will definitely, as I need to understand the concepts at play.

Gerrycan, you are right in assuming we won't be heading up the Gunbarrel with this rig. I haven't even opted for the 'Outback' version of the Jayco due to the 200kg extra unladen weight. We'd probably drive some dirt roads, but nothing requiring a Prado or Landcruiser.

I've also read reviews with high praise for the MkII as a fine towing vehicle. I have no idea what sort of poptop van would suit an 80kg towball weight for a car that will obviously tow 1600kg with ease (or VAG wouldn't approve it) ... somewhat miffed.

[Guest001]

Just managed to finally log in. Thanks to all the informed replies.

I'm still a little puzzled by the concept that towball weight is set in stone and A WDH won't modify that - I've towed a 'makeshift' camper trailer before, laden and unladen, and I loaded it in such a way that the ball weight was not excessive.

Our Scout is rated to tow 1600kg braked, so a van weighing 960kg unladen will unlikely ever hit that limit even loaded to the gunnels. SO what happens to ball weight if part of the balance making up the ATM is rear of the van axle? I haven't had time to read the articles posted (many thanks!!) but will definitely, as I need to understand the concepts at play.

Gerrycan, you are right in assuming we won't be heading up the Gunbarrel with this rig. I haven't even opted for the 'Outback' version of the Jayco due to the 200kg extra unladen weight. We'd probably drive some dirt roads, but nothing requiring a Prado or Landcruiser.

I've also read reviews with high praise for the MkII as a fine towing vehicle. I have no idea what sort of poptop van would suit an 80kg towball weight for a car that will obviously tow 1600kg with ease (or VAG wouldn't approve it) ... somewhat miffed.

Only a very brave or stupid person would load the rear of a van to lighten ball weight. The concept of ball weight is that it is weighed disconnected from the tug and it is what it is from then on. If a van has a recommended figure of 10% that should be adhered to. Its not done just for fun. It is also a figure which as I said changes somewhat depending on loading but should never be deliberately lightened off for convenience. If you load heavily behind the axle you increase the chances of the pendulum effect starting when turning.

Read the article by Collyn Rivers and you may understand,
As far as a WDH lightening ball weight. It shifts some of the weight, a small amount as I said but the original weight is still there It cant just disappear and become less. As some rigs dont use a WDH the weight is used as a set figure to allow for all situations.
This has been hashed over on Caravan forums endlessly and always comes back to what i have been saying. If you load the van at the rear you increase the chances of sway starting, from which it may only recover when lying on its side in a ditch. There are endless threads about not adding big toolboxes and extra spare tyres to the back of vans and affecting their balance badly

The basic problem with tow capacities of Euro vehicles is that they are designed for Euro conditions and their type of vans.
As Australia is a pimple on the world in the scope of worldwide sales we are not considered in the scope of things.
Aussie vans are unfortunately designed differently and as such are unsuitable to be towed by Euro made vehicles.

Plain and simple Read the article It demonstrates what can happen and why.

[Skooter]

Thanks Hillbilly. I have read both articles (late last night!) and can certainly understand the concepts at play better. The first certainly favours the idea that N Am and Oz standards are on a different plane to those of Europe - there's no getting away from the fact that the Scout is rated by VAG to tow 1600kg braked - with a towball capacity of 80kg, that can ONLY mean they are comfortable with a 5% ratio!!

I do wonder whether the Scout would have been rated with a higher towball capacity if it had been built here (if it were the identical car). I'm going to keep my eyes peeled for Jayco Eagles and see what sort of cars are hauling them. Obviously the 80kg rating is based on some Euro formula relating to 5% of the tow capacity (1600kg). Why would a Commodore be safer towing an Eagle than my car?

One significant issue raised in one of the articles was distance from axle to hitch (overhang). Utes rate VERY badly - The Skoda is very short in this measurement. As for tool boxes on the REAR of vans, absolutely a no-no, but adding weight just behind the axle reduces the pendulum effect significantly. I would never hang stuff off the back of ANY trailer, even driving a load to the tip! The articles made significant points about studying the dynamics of loading correctly - my brother is a large vessel sea captain; they learn load dynamics in heavy detail and very early in their studies.

i'm gonna do some more digging. I need to get to the bottom of this!

[Guest001]

Thanks Hillbilly. I have read both articles (late last night!) and can certainly understand the concepts at play better. The first certainly favours the idea that N Am and Oz standards are on a different plane to those of Europe - there's no getting away from the fact that the Scout is rated by VAG to tow 1600kg braked - with a towball capacity of 80kg, that can ONLY mean they are comfortable with a 5% ratio!!

I do wonder whether the Scout would have been rated with a higher towball capacity if it had been built here (if it were the identical car). I'm going to keep my eyes peeled for Jayco Eagles and see what sort of cars are hauling them. Obviously the 80kg rating is based on some Euro formula relating to 5% of the tow capacity (1600kg). Why would a Commodore be safer towing an Eagle than my car?

One significant issue raised in one of the articles was distance from axle to hitch (overhang). Utes rate VERY badly - The Skoda is very short in this measurement. As for tool boxes on the REAR of vans, absolutely a no-no, but adding weight just behind the axle reduces the pendulum effect significantly. I would never hang stuff off the back of ANY trailer, even driving a load to the tip! The articles made significant points about studying the dynamics of loading correctly - my brother is a large vessel sea captain; they learn load dynamics in heavy detail and very early in their studies.

i'm gonna do some more digging. I need to get to the bottom of this!

Any weight added behind the axle will encourage sway.

The reason that the Commodore can tow higher towball weights is probably due to the construction of the body of the car. It is possibly more heavily built in the areas of connection of the towbar. The Scout is built for the lighter weights in Europe and it would be unwise to overload it in that way. Personally I wouldnt tow a van with a Commodore either and wouldnt think about it at all with my Passat
Nissan Pathfinders had a problem where the rear end was poorly built for towing and several had the towbars literally rip right out of the car. This mostly was caused by stresses when using a WDH.

Its quite simple The vehicle is built for one thing and you want it to do another. Sadly not a good idea

[Gerrycan]

The 80kg towball weight is the same for all Octavia models although the towing capacity does reduce with the smaller engine 2WD drive models so I think that indicates it is more a structural thing because the Octavia Payload capacity of 450 to 500kg is high for its class
For instance I noticed that the new Kia optima with a very powerful 1.6 turbo petrol engine and about 1600kg empty weight is only rated for towing a braked 1200kg.
If you have gone to the expense of fitting a towbar to an Octavia (relatively expensive) then I think its worthwhile seeing if there are Euro specced caravans out there that fill your requirements at a reasonable price. It just cannot be a Jayco.

[Skooter]

Thanks again. Still in a quandary about this biz. Did more reading on a few forums last night. Seems a Subaru Forester (weighs approx 1500kg, same as the Scout) has a towing capacity of 1600kg (same as the Scout) but a towball weight limit of 160kg!!! Work that one out ... does the Forester have a couple of RSJs welded under the body?!!

And the thing that really bugs me is that if my car is rated to tow 1600kg, why would a 1200kg loaded Jayco compromise it's body construction (rip the towbar right out of it like a Pathfinder!) - that has nothing to do with towball weights. I'm willing to bet that the system for setting towball capacities in Europe is different from that in Japan, Oz, N Am. Nothing else can explain why a Subaru weighing the same as the Scout with the same towing capacity as a Scout has a 160kg towball limit???!!! The Skoda can either tow a 1600kg braked trailer or it can't. If you are right, Hillbilly, then if there were such a thing as a 1600kg trailer with a towball limit of 80kg (and obviously there isn't!), my car would handle it and be within all VAG limits.

Following Gerrycan's suggestion, does anyone know of Euro style low profile (poptop) vans that will accommodate two adults and two kids (10 and 14) as well as the Jayco Eagle will?

[Guest001]

We already said to look at Euro vans like Bailey, Unicorn (offshoot of Bailey), Geist, York, Adria, Jurgens (Not actually Euro but similar) Not sure about poptops but do a Google search and you will find out.

Just dont buy a privately imported one that is being onsold because it may not be Aussie compliant which we wont go into here yet.

As far as why your car is concerned we are not engineers and merely pointing out what COULD happen not why.
Ask Skoda why they have the limits They make them.

The Pathfinders were pulling heavier weights and mostly using a Weight distributing hitch when the separation occurred

Quote "I'm willing to bet that the system for setting towball capacities in Europe is different from that in Japan, Oz, N Am" Unquote

Oh good the light has gone on.

And no there probably isnt in an Aussie made van.

[brad]

Skooter

Have you contacted Jayco about your issue?

Maybe they could provide a solution. VW/Audi /Skoda sell 100,00 cars per year in AU don't they? Plenty of those purchasers probably want to tow a van or boat.

If I was a manufacturer and losing sales because my "add-on" product didn't suit a sector of the market I'd make some changes to get that piece of the pie.

If nothing else, make them aware they are losing sales

[Gerrycan]

If you look on the NRMA website there is a fair amount of information and tests on caravans and towing vehicles although not all of it is necessarily recent.
In 2012 NRMA were using an Adria caravan for most of their testing purely because there were no Aus built light towball weight available..
They indicated that one might be available 'soon' though. Might be worth contacting NRMA for an update?
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