Can I salvage anything from my T5 train wreck :(

[aSimpleLife]

A wise forum member Seano, once advised me not to over think things.
However back then I didn't understand this...and by the time I did...too late.
And this sad and sorry tale is the result.

Have a 1 owner 2010 T5 lwb manual van 2.0tdi 103kw with 175,000km and a full service history.
Has been sitting out on a Melbourne street unstarted for the last couple of years and is still registered.
Back then it would start and run for a few seconds before cutting out.

What went wrong, is my remote power system shorted and super-heated the cabling and anything in contact with it. Inside the van, under it and in the engine bay. At the time I had no idea what was happening. I now realise car fires can start very quickly. Through all the smoke I assumed it was on fire. I made my 1st mistake emptying 2 full size Presto ABE powder fire extinguishers into and under the van. And my 2nd mistake was apparently to later hose out the powder with water.

I stripped out all the remote power system and any melted trims. The car still ran so I drove it for another 2 years. Progressively had to strip and repair lots of interior surface rust issues that appeared. Eventually the engine warning light started coming on (not for the first time). Was reset by my mechanic (Boris at Volkscare) as had been done before and kept driving. Eventually the warning light came on again and the car started to go into limp mode. But only from time to time. Each time when I started it the next day limp mode was gone.
Note; either the EGR or DPF was replaced under warranty in the first couple of years. And an EGR sensor had been replaced a year or so earlier when I had a similar problem.

Eventually I took it back to my mechanic. He/we felt it was most likely an earth/connection issue related to the fire extinguisher. I thought he said he couldn't get his vcds ross-tech scanner to complete the process. But maybe I was just confused. Because I have his 4 page report with 5 errors on it (attached). He didn't want to touch it and recommended I take it to an auto elec. He also suggested I'd made things worse by hosing the residue out with water and the van would now likely rust from the inside out. Haven't seen any evidence of that yet but still need to check more closely...somehow. Before the "event" there were no errors. The 5 errors now were;

1. 4807 EGR System P0401 00 [104] Insufficient Flow
2. 11901 Manifold Pressure / Boost Sensor (G31) P0236 00 [032] Implausible Signal
3. 4124 Sensor Reference Voltage B P0651 00 [032] Open Circuit
4. 4881 EGR Valve (N18 ) P1440 00 [032] Open Circuit
5. Engine Speed Sensor (G28 ) P0322 00 [096] No Signal.

The auto elec had the van for 2 weeks and finally gave up. However while he had it the problem got worse. Now it only starts and runs for a few seconds.
I thought he too mentioned scan tool issues? He felt it was initially a sensor problem. He by-passed something that I can't remember and this turned off the warning light. He then disconnected the battery for the weekend, intending to finish the job off on the Monday. However on Monday after re-connecting the battery the van would start but dies after a few seconds. He removed his by-pass but the new problem remained. He thought the immobiliser must have been triggered but could not overcome this. His final thought was that I now probably had an ecu problem. Which seemed like a big expense when it may not be the problem. And if I repair the car I might just keep having further electrical problems. So I decided to think about it...for the next 2+ years :/

Now I am just trying to decide what the least worst financial outcome is.
Until now I've been busy working...and basically it had broken my spirit :/
Now I'm retired, should have plenty of time, but must be must be able to do all work myself to keep costs down.
Am prepared to learn and invest in further useful tools.
I'm not yet much of a mechanic. Have been working on the much simpler and easier AU Falcons for a few years now.
I didn't want to expand into these more complex diesel VW's with a turbo, front wheel drive and VW diagnistics.
But getting rid of the van as is, feels like it'd be the worst financial outcome...although the most convenient one.
Happy to either start using the van again, or use it as parts for another cheap one, or just part it out over time.
Although to get a good price on my engine and gearbox I'd have thought I need the van running. Then part the rest out.
If I get the van running though I may as well keep it and I have plenty of use for it. Unless the fire extinguisher residue leads to constant electrical problems and structural rust. But I can always part it out down the track if it comes to that.
And if I do keep using it then I'll need to be able to do my own diagnostics and repairs anyway, like I do now with the AU Falcons.

Figured I may as well document the experience either way here in case it's of any use to others over time.
Will appreciate any and all input.

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[aSimpleLife]

After 2 years I just tried to start it. Cranked it 3 or 4 times. It turned over but would not start.

Only then did it occur to me, that apart from checking for pests and cleaning out any leaves and spider webs, I had probably neglected to a number of other things first. This is one diesel engine checklist I found;
- Clean the fuel tank
- Replace the fuel filter
- Drain the coolant
- Flush out the radiator
- Replace the oil and oil filter
- Clean the covers
- Pour kerosene on the rocker arms
- Clean the oil fill point
- Remove glow plugs.

I've never worked on a diesel engine before. Definitely not a modern one. If this was a petrol engine I would have removed the spark plugs and sprayed in fogging oil. But I am unsure with a diesel. Perhaps just cranking it without starting for a while is enough to get some engine oil circulating?
As for the coolant and engine oil and filter. I know both were replaced during servicing not not before it stopped. So I am hoping I can leave them for now until at least I can get the van started, if not running.

It seems I should have first replaced the 2+ year old diesel fuel?
And perhaps I have created further problems by cranking the engine 3 or 4 times with the old fuel?

Unfortunately there is 60 litres of old diesel left in the 80 litre tank.
Tried syphoning it out but there looks like some sort of baffle preventing that?
The next suggestion is to disconnect the fuel line somewhere and use VCDS to operate the fuel pump to empty the tank. However I don't have a VW scan tool yet.
Or instead of this just turn the engine over. Which I don't really want to do anyway. And with 60L it could take a long time.

So I guess that leaves removing the fuel tank. I'll need to jack it up on stands out on the street. Some things I've read to be aware of are;
- Be gentle when disconnecting the fuel lines in front of the tank and do it before you drop it
- I meant to say after you dropped the tank and have slid it out and got the sender out it’s easy to syphon through the sender hole to get it back up again
- also clip the diesel heater fuel line into place, in the guides on top of the tank before u lift it back up.

Not sure if I should also be replacing the fuel filter as I've turned it over a few times with the old diesel?

[BrianJ]

the only thing that comes to mind is whether the engine immobilizer part of the ignition key is working properly, I assume the engine stops with both keys that you own. Someone who know more about this may be able to give more details about how long the engine will run before stopping if the immobilizer doesn't work or whether in such a case it will not start at all.

[Rebuild]

Is there any ECU related electronics near the floor under the seats? Maybe some connections have water related corrosion?
maybe lift the driver compartment flooring and check for wiring corrosion? dunno

I think you're on the wrong track with the fuel. it should still fire and run longer.

[aSimpleLife]

the only thing that comes to mind is whether the engine immobilizer part of the ignition key is working properly, I assume the engine stops with both keys that you own. Someone who know more about this may be able to give more details about how long the engine will run before stopping if the immobilizer doesn't work or whether in such a case it will not start at all.

Is there any ECU related electronics near the floor under the seats? Maybe some connections have water related corrosion? maybe lift the driver compartment flooring and check for wiring corrosion? dunno

I think you're on the wrong track with the fuel. it should still fire and run longer.

Thankyou for the replies. I think I have muddied the waters by chucking up a whole lot of stuff at once.

2 years ago I ended up with the start but only runs for a few seconds problem.
The problem was the same whichever of my 2 keys I used.
My auto elec had both keys but couldn't resolve the problem.
He felt it was the imobiliser but I couldn't afford to keep spending money on his time.
It is very possible that corrosion of a connector or connectors or an earth is the problem. The residue from the fire extinguishers is highly corrosive (I now know). And I feel I have to somehow check all of them inside the car, under the car and in the engine bay.
Everything is still stripped out of the van so that makes it easier.
I also feel like I am going to need to obtain VCDS Ros-Tech scanning somehow to get this done. But I want to make sure I am on the right track before I start outlaying what are big bucks for me.
I see discussions about the alternative of scanning with OBDeleven. But I am assuming a 2010 vehicle would be better supported by the longer established VCDS?

But before that I am now just trying to get the van started after it is sat on the street for 2 years.
I had only tried to crank it 3 or 4 times and it didn't start.
2 years ago it would have started first time...but only run for a few seconds.
Then I thought I better read up on what else I should have done first...and I posted one of those lists.
Most people seem to say that modern diesel only has a shelf life of 12 months max...and it's been well over 2 years.
I didn't want to take the risk of making things worse by running bad diesel through everything. Assuming I haven't already done that with the 3 or 4 cranks.

I had hoped to just simply syphon the old 60 litres out.
Apparently it would be easy if I had VCDS which can operate the fuel pump after disconnecting the fuel line at the fuel filter in the engine bay.
However I was reading today that I should be able to operate the fuel pump just by running power to the fuel pump relay connector also under the passenger seat. As well as disconnecting the fuel line at the fuel filter.
If that fails then I'll need to drop the fuel tank.

Got sidetracked today...yet again...but hope to get this done tomorrow.
Unless I can convince myself in the meantime that 2 year old diesel is not a problem

[Greg Roles]

Engine loom.

You have issues with all the main sensors in the engine bay, and no signal from the engine speed sensor will prevent starting as far as I know. The car needs to see 400rpm before it will inject, and with no crank speed signal, no injection.

EGR system and boost sensors all jump out at me, and they are all part of the engine loom. Open signals tell me the car can't see them. You need to test the sensor end, then the continuity of the loom, me personally I'd just put a whole new loom in.

To be honest, having gone through the saga of a problematic engine myself with my 2.5 TDI, I'd bail out and save yourself the saga. A car like that with a burnt wiring system will always be problematic, I'd never trust it, and sometimes it's just less stress to take the financial loss and save yourself an ulcer!! You can always find a way to earn more money!

[aSimpleLife]

Engine loom.
You have issues with all the main sensors in the engine bay, and no signal from the engine speed sensor will prevent starting as far as I know. The car needs to see 400rpm before it will inject, and with no crank speed signal, no injection.
EGR system and boost sensors all jump out at me, and they are all part of the engine loom. Open signals tell me the car can't see them. You need to test the sensor end, then the continuity of the loom, me personally I'd just put a whole new loom in.

These 5 errors are from my Mechanic 2 years ago. When it was still running. But the engine light was on most of the time. And it was regularly going into limp mode.

I do not have VCDS results after the Auto Elec was finished with it and it would then only start and run for a few seconds.

Nor do I have VCDS results for right now where it is not starting after sitting for 2 years.

So it was still running with "no signal from the engine speed sensor."
Not that this helps me with a resolution

I am assuming a new loom is going to be a significant expense. And a second hand loom a risk of more issues. Another look also may not resolve all the problems and there could still be further problems. So I doubt I'll go down this path.
For now I'll have a good look at all connections either end of the loom, focussing on those areas, and see if there is anything obvious.

To be honest, having gone through the saga of a problematic engine myself with my 2.5 TDI, I'd bail out and save yourself the saga. A car like that with a burnt wiring system will always be problematic, I'd never trust it, and sometimes it's just less stress to take the financial loss and save yourself an ulcer!! You can always find a way to earn more money!

Thankyou for your thoughts...and yes...giving up and just getting rid of it is my starting point...and where I've been at for the last 2 years. But I haven't been able to pull the pin yet.
Besides our emotional connection :/ the van was fully fitted out and is still exactly what I need. There are no funds now in retirement to buy a new van. And I've been trying to fit into a cheaper/simpler au falcon station wagon for 2 years...but it's not the same. It's also decision time for me on whether to start spending on the station wagon fitout.

Can I ask if you'd consider buying an identical van and stripping mine for parts as a viable option?
After a few years of looking, I notice a couple of vans have finally now popped up recently in my area.
I don't mind storing parts and working on my vehicle (once I've understood the greater complexity with these).
The engine/turbo horror stories used to always bother me. But having a spare engine and transmission would mitigate that.
I am assuming my engine and tranmission would still be in very good condition...and should be of significant value. While I know this...I can't prove it to anyone else...if the car won't start and at best only runs for a few seconds...so the value is likely less for them.

[Greg Roles]

You have a CFH-C ( or a similar engine ), same as I used to have in my Yeti. Very common. I got a genuine loom for $220 euro delivered out of Germany on eBay from memory. All I know is all those errors are basically the last 5 plugs on the engine loom, so it stands out to me.

You might be smart to buy VCDS if you intend to pursue this path.

As for what to do that's up to you fella. I have a mate in love with Triumph Stags and he has donor cars etc etc, no way I'd waste my time or space on such an old car, but it means something to him, so it's all up to you. It's not like a 103kw VAG engine/trans/ECU/parts are rare or hard to come by, tons of Audi's, Skoda's and VW's ran that engine from 2010 to about 2018. I know that engine backwards, and can do all my own work on it, but don't bother holding spares, and just hit eBay etc as needed.

A low km engine for my Yeti was $2400 delivered, so you aren't talking big money to do a full replacement if it comes to that, labour excluded of course. I have to say the CFHx series of TDI engines were one of VW's most reliable common rail engines, and my heavily modified CFHC made 270 thou till the turbo popped and I was running a huge boost tune you can't even buy, and way way too much water methanol on a hot day. Still basically going fine at 327 thou when I swapped it out just because I wanted another ten years of trouble free motoring ( and more power ).

I still say loom issue, as it seems weird all these things would play up at once otherwise, but you do what you want!

[aSimpleLife]

I'm definitely not asking anyone to make my decisions for me
But your opinions and experience I am finding invaluable, so thanks again for taking the time.

I am just trying to make my own best decision...given where I'm at...without enough knowledge/experience to really do so.
I'll spend a bit more time trying to at least get it starting again.
Based on where I get to with that, I can decide whether purchasing an engine loom and VCDS is the next best option.
More than prepared to just get rid of it though...if that is my best money/time decision...as it looks right now.

My engine is the - CAAC - 2.0 - 103kw - TDI340
Can't see any direct correlations online but assume as you suggest it is similar to a CFH-C engine.
Which would make it this type of engine? - EA189 - 2.0 R4 16v TDI CR 81-132kW

[Sunny43.5]

What an absolute bummer of an experience , for whats its worth when I bought my son a T4 back some years ago it was the old non turboed diesel which would not pull a sick boy off your sister . I decided to make him happy so we bid on a same year T4 petrol one on Ebay, we took a train to Coffs Harbour from Brissie and drove the van back home same day . To say we were happy with the performance was an understatement it was great . I ended up doing a complete swap engine gearbox fuel tank lines etc and body control computer and wiring looms . The sons van drove like a dream and made him happy , so I decided to put the old diesel lot into the Ebay van . It wasn't too hard to do but like yours would not start I faffed around with it for about a week with no luck , finally Jimmy who was on here many years back said I needed to get the key recoded . After I took the original key and the other donor one to MisterMinit they copied and coded the key and the bugger fired right up . I cleaned up the Ebay van fixed the worn seats did a bit of DIY paint work and sold it back on Ebay for a $1000 dollar profit over what we paid for it in the first place. Maybe as others suggest an Ebay search might find a banged up one with good parts for yours . Or maybe a auction site with repairable right offs. I hope you get it sorted these are such good vans when they are running .