Polo GTI on P-Plates

[alexaescht]

There will always be bad drivers, and there will always be good drivers. My dad (60 years old) for example drives too slowly, changes up gears waaayyyyy to early, changes lanes while not really looking (almost crashed into the rear of a ute the other day while changing lanes) and above all is constantly fiddling with the radio, air con or MFD. Dad has written off several cars during his life.

My mum (56 years old) on the other hand, has never been involved in any accident, ever.

[alexaescht]

And to add to that, dad had a truck licence when he lived in Queensland.

[TorqueSteer]

Hey everyone. I just found this section about gti P platters. So I had a read through.and I read , This car is banned,this one isn't, this one is better. Polo gti's are too much power for a p plater.... stuff about what makes a good driver and what doesn't. Now I agree the polo gti it is quite powerful for a hatchback. Its better to get a slower car to learn how to drive .. (drive) meaning learning the rules of the road, learning your car and putting theory in practice. My first car on my red P's was a vw mk5 jetta fsi 1.8.It had power it was a good car to learn inn. I had my days of fast driving swerving from lane to lane thinking I was invisible. Taking corners to fast and paying for my stupid actions. I think everyone can agree with me . You always learn the hard way in life. Life is never easy. People take risks in life and you learn from those risks and mistakes. Now I think I am the only person to own a polo gti in sydney and on my green P's I was lucky to get them but I'm able to get my full license just need to do it . (Have no time)... The polo gti is a great overall car. I have had no issues with dsg...or anything... not yet... (thank god). So Kesh if u like the 77tsi and if you can get it and you don't need an excemption. Do it . If not get something with some power and something you can learn your car learn how to drive and also have fun inn.

Hope what I said helps .

[amazeer]

Senna and Brock died (as have numerous others) while competing where speed was the primary goal (along with finishing, of course). This does not apply to normal road usage and I would be as bold as to suggest that those who drive in competition are more sedate in normal road usage as they aren't out to prove that they and their car are the bee knees.

I think most of the people who have crashed off the Royal Nasho or Macquarie Pass or Kings Highway (insert your local "spirited driving location") could be said to have had speed as one of primary objectives. A race driver may be trying to push to 100% of the limit most of the time and you or I might only try to go at 80 or 90 but chances are eventually you will **** up. Watch V8 taxi race next time it is on and you will see several experienced professional drivers cocking it up and misjudging where 100% is. Every now and then someone is going to misjudge where 80% - 90% was and will play the russian roulette will I hit something, what will I hit. I'm pretty sure Brock had quite a bad civillian record though I cant find anything on google. I vaguely remember him losing his licence for warp speeds in rural VIC. Luis Hamilton had his car impounded in Melbourne. I've been a passenger in a car with a former bathurst winner on the way home from work on a 3 lane road and we were using all 3. I reckon they are probably just like anyone else in a road car.

But anyway my comment was meant to say that just because you have the defensive driving course certificate doesnt mean you will survive. When doing the skidpan you are waiting for and expecting the slide. You are mentally prepared for and thinking about what to do. If faced with a surprise debris/water/gravel/oil you might not be so calm and act like you were taught.The best driver on the planet isnt going to be able to recover from every scenario either.

If I give you a badge that says you are a great car controller you will might at least subconsciously lift your target from say 80% to 90% and remove 50% of your margin for error. The odds catch up with a few hundred of us every year. Sometimes having done the course will probably save a life. Other times I am sure it will lead to the risk taking that will take a life.

With one very muddy exception every road I have ever driven is very very easy to stay on when driven at the speed limit and signposted corner speeds.The 100% foolproof method of avoiding road fatality is not teaching you something that will give ourselves a chance of getting out of danger but changing our behaviour so we dont put ourselves in danger in the first place. But then nobody likes the ferris wheel, we all want to ride the roller coaster.

[brad]

And I'm not saying any of you guys are incompetent drivers, lets face it if your on a car forum chances are you like cars and thus can drive them very well

I'm just saying old people in general like to run their mouth...

Have been involved in car forums for many years. Liking cars != being able to drive them.

Young folk like to jabber a bit too.

[JonP01]

I have a few more thoughts that I would like to add. Firstly, young people who dislike P Plate restrictions should not assume that we older people have always had or even wanted powerful cars. Although I have occasionally driven some high performance cars, no car I have ever owned has had more than 82 kw. I could have gone out and bought myself a V8 Clubsport or Falcon Turbo last year if I wanted a nice comfortable, high performance bang for the buck car, but decided on a simple unpretentious Polo for a number of sensible reasons. Also, back when I got my licence back in early 80s, I would actually have preferred to have been on P Plates for longer than a year as it was back then, because I was still learning tricks of the trade that could only be mastered through actual driving experience. I would have been happier if other drivers around me knew I was still inexperienced. As an example, when I was in my second year of driving, I was hit in the rear by another car when I was stationary at a stop sign. Obviously it was the other driver's fault. But I later realised I could actually have prevented the accident by driving up to the stop sign in a particular way - accelerating very slowly and steadily in the queue and de-accelerating very slowly to the actual stop sign line, rather than they way I was taught which was to accelerate and brake normally for it. But I soon discovered that bad drivers just assume you are going to go straight through a stop sign without stopping if you accelerate in the queue and brake normally. Since adopting that technique, I have never been rear-ended. But I had to pick this up through experience - it wasn't something taught back then except by advanced driving instructors (I later went on participate in two Peter Finlay advanced driving courses and they were incredibly valuable - one was race driving and the other was a one on one advanced road driving course).

But for existing P Plates who are upset by the current rules, here are some things that you might want to think about:

1. You don't really need a car that has better performance than something like a Polo 77TSI, Audi A1 90TSI or Golf 118TSI except perhaps in exceptional circumstances. Those circumstances might be, for example, driving along twisty, single lane country roads with 4 big blokes on board (say a 360 kg load) and needing to get by a slow moving vehicle holding everyone up when visibility is poor and the broken lines may exist only for a very short distances. In cases like this, a high performance car will obviously have you on the wrong side of the road for less time than the lower powered car. There may also be situations where you only have a small stretch of available on-ramp road onto a freeway and in these cases a heavily laden higher powered car is sometimes better, depending on the circumstances. But I can truthfully say that I have never had to drive my 77TSI Polo even remotely close to it's performance envelope in the 9 months I have owned it. True, I have not been in a situation where I have had three sumo-wrestlers on board and needed to blast by a truck on a single lane country road where I can only see a hundred metres ahead of me, but if I knew that was going to be a regular thing, I would have considered a different car in a completely different class - probably something like a Focus ST.

2. Insurance premiums will be a nightmare for a young driver who owns a high performance car. It takes decades to get the premiums down to levels commensurate with those of a "normal" car, even if you have no accidents and no infringements. I don't think for me it would have been worthwhile owing a high performance car until I had reached my forties - until then the higher premiums did not make it worthwhile.

3. A high performance car will be a magnet to car thieves and a magnet to low-lives who like nothing more than to key your car when you have left it in the car park. I know a number of people whose high performance cars were stolen or deliberately damaged for no other reason than they were "better" cars than ordinary ones. and they obviously wanted to cut the owner down to size. My Polo, on the other hand is as boring to look at as a white Corolla.

4. Re-sale might not be as easy as it is for a bog-standard car. If you own a high performance car, not many potential buyers are going to assume you never drove it over 4,000 RPM and never used more than half throttle. They are going to assume it was regularly driven enthusiastically, regardless of whether it was or wasn't.

5. The only thing between exploiting the performance of your high performance car and getting it impounded under the "hoon" laws is the traction control. Even the humble Polo 77TSI would be ceased under these laws if you were caught driving it to the limit with the traction control disengaged. And the high performance car will be more tempting. Needless to say, even a standard Polo can go far faster than the speeds at which a driver instantly loses their licence and the car is impounded. So why the need for a car that does well over 200 kmh? You are never going to legally be able to use that extra performance except on a track day.

Someone said on another forum that anything more than 100 kw is a waste in a small car these days given our speed limits. And if you think about normal driving where the speed limits are 60, 70 or 80, even a basic Polo TSI is only a couple of seconds slower to 60 than a genuine super car. Again, one has to ask what is the point of owning a truly powerful car, given all the downfalls.

[JonP01]

Luis Hamilton had his car impounded in Melbourne. I've been a passenger in a car with a former bathurst winner on the way home from work on a 3 lane road and we were using all 3. I reckon they are probably just like anyone else in a road car.

I think it depends a lot on the attitude of the individual. Some professional race drivers would simply think that given they regularly have to drive at 100% on a track, there is no point driving at or near the limit on a public road. The older ones probably are more conscious of the limits you eluded to and might actually drive more conservatively. During my ride with a professional racing driver I was actually stunned (as I guess I was of an age where I expected to cover my face and get out the brown paper bag). But they were super smooth, almost undetectable gear changes, very conservative with both revs and throttle and could have been a high class chauffeur if I did not know any better. I think Jackie Stewart is similar. In his advanced driving books and videos he always emphasised driving smoothly and conservatively, especially on unfamiliar roads.

[nomadx38]

I only want a high performance car because it has what i would call "effortless performance". My 77tsi with its turbo (and thus low down torque) is better than a standard 4 cylinder car which you have to rev it's tits off - but I still have to push it to keep up with traffic (and doesn't help the DSG is playing up and any less than 50% throttle results in bucking of the clutches).

it requires a minimum 2 km for safe overtaking at 100km/h (between 40-80 is ok) and towing is a big no no! thats the difference between a V8 and a 4 cylinder. Speed is just a added bonus but torque is important, to just cruise comfortably around the city.

And no I wouldn't go a diesel though I admit the Polo and Golf diesels pull off the line very well and they have done a great job to bring throttle response to a diesel - unlike a truck

There is also the reliability side of things - a car that has a lot of power means you don't have to push it as hard meaning less fuel usage, and less wear and tear on the engine keeping the revs under 2000rpm. (And I keep my cars a min of 5 years)

[JonP01]

I only want a high performance car because it has what i would call "effortless performance". My 77tsi with its turbo (and thus low down torque) is better than a standard 4 cylinder car which you have to rev it's tits off - but I still have to push it to keep up with traffic (and doesn't help the DSG is playing up and any less than 50% throttle results in bucking of the clutches).

I certainly agree that effortless performance is desirable. That is one reason I really wanted a Falcon back in the 80s, because they were very comfortable and had a low revving, unstressed engine. It is funny how times have changed though - today's Polo 77TSI is more effortless than those old Falcons and feels very close to the VN generation Commodores. My first car was a standard Daihatsu Charade and I remember it being a great car but totally lacking in power and especially torque. I badly wanted the turbo version but the overall cost differential (including insurance) was nearly $4,000. That turbo made all the difference and made it competitive with the 2-litre "family" cars of the era.

If it were not for my fear of attracting thieves and a lack of space in my garage (I need to build a garden shed one day), I probably would have bought the 6 cylinder Falcon turbo last year instead of a Polo (not the Econoboost 4 cylinder though, but only because I wanted a plain manual and the Econoboost is only auto).

If you want very good performance you could consider something like the Econoboost Falcon or step up to the 6 cylinder turbo. That is about as good as you can get for a sane price if effortless performance is what you want. I think the Econoboost is even P Plate legal, but I am not certain.

I had my eyes on next year's Fiesta ST as well (since it met the size criteria in terms of overall length) but given my chronic back pain I was worried the ride would be a compromise and I did not want to wait a year to find out.

To be honest though, having got used to the 77TSI Polo, anything else by comparison just feels rough and unresponsive, even though they may have much better on-paper figures. I think I mentioned earlier for example, that there isn't much difference between the Polo and an XR5 Turbo if you keep it below 5,000 RPM. And all engines I have tried that are bigger than 2 litres tend to feel quite rough and unwilling compared to the small capacity, very low inertia and friction 77TSI. Even my Mum's Yaris is a rough runner compared to the little sewing machine under the bonnet of the Polo (let alone that the Polo would leave the Yaris in the dust).

Infact I have become such a fan of small engines (despite really loving large capacity ones when I was young) that almost on principal now, I would always prefer a smaller engine with turbo over a much larger one.

Incidentally, your Polo almost certainly does not put out 77 kw and 175 nm. It might be more like mid 80s kw and over 190 nm.

[gavs]

I had a VR commodore wagon as my first car.

To give some figures, 132kw 295nm 1300kg.

No airbags, no traction control, ANCAP rating of 1 star, solid axle rear end.

I wrote this car off on the monash freeway 2 days before my 21st birthday an I nearly killed myself because some f*ckwit truck driver didn't secure their load of Redgum fence posts. That car is the reason why I believ that mandatory, multi-year driver training should be undertaken by all 15 year olds up until they get their license at 18 and even then the present restrictions are still ridiculous. While our resident P players will disagree, I was that young not very long ago so I think that I might be more inclined to comment in a relevant context.

Males don't mature mentally until the age of 25 or later and I can agree with that. I find I am far more calculating now than I was a couple I years ago and I know for sure that there is no way I considered things that I now do before my actions. This is why no matter how competent a driver any P player thinks they are, they should not be allowed to drive a vehicle that produces more than 90kw / 150nm per metric tonne. I have known a few racers and the one I knew as a p plater wrapped his falcon around a power pole, even though he would get his fix on the track every other weekend. Again, actions before thinking of consequence because of trying to show off. Granted there are still idiot drivers in their 30's but really, the statistics do speak for themselves. Males under the age of 25 are up to 80% more likely to be involved in a crash than the next highest risk group, being females under the age of 25.

I wasn't a great p plate driver and I will admit it but I NEVER, EVER did anything that jeopardized the safety of others on the roads. I never excessively exceeded the speed limit (115 in a 110 zone on a deserted straight stretch of road was about is risqué as I got) and upon my big crash, I did advanced driver courses. I didn't drive for 3 months after my crash, it scared the absolute sh*t out of me, I didn't drive on the monash for several months after that even.

Regardless of how good a driver any male under the age of 22 THINKS they are, they're not. You might be Vettel-esque in your steering capabilities but on public roads, your not. Anatomically it is impossible for you to be as good a driver as you will be when you are 27, but don't take it to heart because if any driver of any age does stupid things on public roads then they will a) get caught out or b) get injured or c) get dead.