Interesting torque figures for 7Spd Dual Clutch

[Corey_R]

Ps wouldn't the modded R DSGs in danger of busting the limits if the gearbox?

The turbo-diesel 6R Polo is relatively gutless so the older 7 speed DSG can handle its output.

I really wish vBulletin had a built in "Wikipedia" style publishing interface because it'd help with situations like this which come up in every single DSG related thread.

gavs won't be too concerned about the R's gearbox, since he has a Polo GTI

But to repeat myself again.
No, there is no issue with modified Golf R's and their DSG.
Everyone gets so worked up over the "torque limits" of the DSG and overlook the fact that the traditional manual gearbox in the cars have the same torque limit.

Whilst VAG rate the "torque limit" of the 6sp wet clutch DSG as 350Nm, this is along the same lines as them rating the engine for 188kw / 330Nm. But we all know that a simple ECU flash ups those engines to ~240kw/430Nm and everything is fine. As far as we're aware, not a single engine failure due to any reputable tuning companies flash!

There are Stage 3 Golf R's (and S3's and GTI's) all running around with unmodified DSGs whilst pushing out around 300kw and 500Nm. Some of these cars have been running around like this for 3 or 4 years now. Sure, if you're intention is to do drag racing or traffic lights GP all the time, you're going to have clutch issues... but then, you would with any car, modified or not.

If you are going for BIG POWER or would like to drag race etc, then you can upgrade the 6sp wet clutch packs and DSG seals to versions which are rated to up to 600Nm+. Whilst these are not common in Australia, they have been around for many years in Europe to handle "R32 Big Turbo Conversions" that they've done over there. Locally, forum members such as DeanCorp have installed these clutch packs, seals, and the required DSG flash to handle the clutch packs in his "GIAC Extreme" modified MKV Pirelli GTI.


With the 7sp dry clutch DSG which is in the Polo, it has a VAG rating of "250Nm". Again, like the engine, this is conservative.
Having said that, since this is a dry clutch, it is not going to stand up to multiple standing starts anywhere near as well as the wet clutch gearboxes will.

As there hasn't been much "big power" upgrades for cars equiped with the 7sp dry clutch DSG thus far, there is not yet any DSG flashes or upgrades available (at least none that anyone here has found yet). However, as we all know, APR Australia has been working hard on their Polo GTI, including a lot of hardware upgrades (intakes, intercoolers, full exhausts etc) which are really the first products to really push the capabilities of the 7sp dry clutch. So as per their comments in the Motor magazine article this month, the 7sp dry clutch DSG is something that they'll need to look at to get some type of upgrades for those who are going beyond the standard "ECU flash".

Anyway, hope that helps...

[DoggieHowser]

Yep, it's studded with references about how the DQ500 is designed for larger vehicles

It also says sporty and performance

The DQ500 is currently the world’s only seven-speed transverse-mounted gearbox for high torques that is in large-scale series production. The clutch is designed for an engine torque of up to 600 Nm, and yet 8 mm smaller than in the DQ250. It can be used for a range of applications from sporty passenger cars to commercial vehicles.

AFAIK, the Audi 7 speeders used in R8's, RS5s etc are longitudinal, no?

So that makes this a different 7 speeder.

ie the third 7 speeder and not 2.

a. 7 speeder transverse used in old Golf V Sport 1.4 twincharged
b. 7 speeder longitudinal used in Audi's higher end models
c. 7 speeder transverse described in the DQ500 link

[Transporter]

It also says sporty and performance

The DQ500 is currently the world’s only seven-speed transverse-mounted gearbox for high torques that is in large-scale series production. The clutch is designed for an engine torque of up to 600 Nm, and yet 8 mm smaller than in the DQ250. It can be used for a range of applications from sporty passenger cars to commercial vehicles.

AFAIK, the Audi 7 speeders used in R8's, RS5s etc are longitudinal, no?

So that makes this a different 7 speeder.

ie the third 7 speeder and not 2.

a. 7 speeder transverse used in old Golf V Sport 1.4 twincharged
b. 7 speeder longitudinal used in Audi's higher end models
c. 7 speeder transverse described in the DQ500 link

It's pointless to argue about that, tomorrow there could be another 7 speed DSG and you would be wrong.

How ever it is very interesting that 125kW TDI in Tiguan is not offered with the 7 speed DSG. It could be interesting to know the truth reason behind it. Any idea Corey_R?

[Corey_R]

When we talk about there being two different 7sp DSG's we're talking about DSG "families".

Like when we mention the "original 6sp wet clutch DSG" - there isn't just 1 of them. There is multiple in the family.
Not only has it gone through several revisions over the years, but there are transverse and longitudinal, plus FWD and AWD versions obviously.


Whilst the link you DQ500 link provided has several obvious mistakes in it (such as saying the DQ250 has wet clutches too), it's "marketting source" rather than a technical source. But then, maybe some of the technical sources haven't updated or are inaccurate.

[Corey_R]

Oh damn, Transporter beat me and is saying much the same thing...

As for the 125kw TDI in the Tiguan, I'm not sure! It's sometimes hard to figure this stuff out because there are very few sources of "complete" information available publically. Even if you have the self training documents for some models (such as the Q5 one you posted), they give a brief summary and then tell you to look at previous self training documents for more detailed information (just like it does in that Q5 one!).

I'd be great if there was a complete listing on these things. For what it's worth, the Wikipedia article on the DSG only lists the 3 "families" (6sp wet clutch, 7sp dry clutch, 7sp wet clutch).

[kaanage]

It also says sporty and performance

See Volkswagen Polo GTI - DCTs in the Market - DCTFACTS.COM

The Polo GTI also marks another important first: it is the first volume-market model to have dual clutch transmission as standard equipment. No alternative is offered to VW’s seven-speed, dry clutch DQ200 DSG gearbox

Whilst the link you DQ500 link provided has several obvious mistakes in it (such as saying the DQ250 has wet clutches too),

Doesn't it? The DQ200 is the dry clutch 7 speed DSG

[Corey_R]

Doh, sorry, yep brainfade! DQ250 not 250NM!

[Sharkie]

... the 7spd dry clutch is actually the "newest" of the lot .....

7spd 550NM wet clutch "family" has been around since late 2008 and the newer 7spd dry clutch 250NM only since late 2009 .....

And I won't be quoting Drive.com.au for their facts as they are almost always wrong ... TSI engines in the Tiguans are NOT changing .... been MK6 GTI (EA888 ) since 2008 .... and 125TDI not coming to Australia, its an overseas only model ...

But, for what its worth .... 125TDI in the UK only available in the 6spd manual .... and not that I'd rate the 6spd manual clutch at 550NM !!!!!

[Corey_R]

Sharkie, you're correct that the 7sp wet clutch family has been around since late 2008, but the 7sp dry clutch family has been around since early 2008.
The 7 Speed DSG 2008-01

[Sharkie]

Sharkie, you're correct that the 7sp wet clutch family has been around since late 2008, but the 7sp dry clutch family has been around since early 2008.
The 7 Speed DSG 2008-01

7spd dry clutch only hit Australia for the 1st time in 2009 in the Mk6 Golfs, but yes, designed earlier, I still believe the Q5's wet clutch to predate the dry clutch as the Q5 was unveiled in April 2008 .....