APR Polo GTI - This months Motor mag (JUN)

[Corey_R]

I could be wrong here

Correct. You're wrong. lol

Edit: See my post in the Polo GTI APR ECU Upgrade thread for the explanation.

[GTI JOE]

LOL...me thinks not entirely

[Corey_R]

I edited my post to give you the link to the explanation at about the same time you posted then. It explains the security lock out feature so you understand how it prevents anyone from knowing a tune is there.

[GTI JOE]

Thanks Corey, but I have seen that video before. What I am trying to say is, the security lock out feature uses the cruise control stalk to input the code and change the tune settings, this, I assume ,is not a standard feature on the stock car. Therefore, all the dealer mechanic has to do is check to see if the cruise control stalk performs any tuning/lockout functions and they would immediately know that it has an ECU tune and probably an APR one at that.

[gavs]

^^ What he said. The other potential issue is how APR leaves a software "stamp" in your ecu so even reverted back to "stock" it's not actually stock, it is the APR interpretation of stock, which introduces all kinds of fun and games if you get the sample tune to try out and then decide on another tuner, correct?..... So this would leave me to believe that it isn't actually invisible to the dealer, like GTI Joe said, one touch of the cruise stalk when one of the service staff takes your car on the pizza run and something they shouldn't be doing has just highlighted why your gti has the torched piston rings they have just replaced.....?

[Guy_H]

The Security lockout is completely invisible - there are no signs of the tune being installed what so ever.

Rather than try to explain a function which should be seen in person, its probably best to visit your local APR dealer for a demonstration, it will all be very clear then!

If you are unsure about tuning your Polo, don't do it. Tuners with average or poor quality tools can not flash over tuners with good tools files. Volkswagen can flash over anyones tunes - no problem, so can all the mainstream tuners, as the rewrite the entire ECU as you should.

There is an explanation here.

http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/f20/...tml#post631455

There are thousands & thousands & thousands of APR modified vehicles in the country, your local APR is well experienced & will be able to answer your questions when you visit them.

[Corey_R]

Thanks Corey, but I have seen that video before. What I am trying to say is, the security lock out feature uses the cruise control stalk to input the code and change the tune settings, this, I assume ,is not a standard feature on the stock car. Therefore, all the dealer mechanic has to do is check to see if the cruise control stalk performs any tuning/lockout functions and they would immediately know that it has an ECU tune and probably an APR one at that.

GTI JOE, I didn't post you a link to a video. I posted you a link to post which I wrote which exactly answers the misconception that you have. I'll paste the explanation here since you don't want to follow the link:

Touching the cruise control stalk DOES NOT request the security code... otherwise, as you mentioned, it'd be pointless!

In basic terms, if you have an APR ECU with switching, and put it in stock mode, enable the security switch, then there is no way to tell that the car has been flashed*. It's just like getting in any other normal stock car. No different lights, beeps, anything.

To "Unlock" and the system when it is locked:
You turn on the ignition (but not turn on the engine).
Move the cruise control to on (flick it off then on if it was already on).
Press the "set" button the number of time as your first digit of your code (i.e. four times for 4)
Flick the cruise control off and then back on, enter the next digit and repeat.
Once your fourth digit is entered and you've flicked the cruise control off, the Check Engine Light and EPC light will alternate flashing.

Up until you've put in those 4 digits, there is NO INDICATION that a tune is there.

From memory you turn the ignition off again and then do the switching process, which is just putting the ignition on, turning on cruise control, and then holding down the set button. After 5 seconds the CEL will flash once per second indicating you've selected program one, another 5 seconds and it'll flash twice per second, indicating program two is selected etc.


* When talking to a local ECU tuner who writes code themselves (I don't know if they want to be named or not) they indicated that they could interogate an ECU and determine that "someones" flash was there. There'd basically be encrypted data in areas of the memory where there should not be data (or something to that effect - please don't flame me, I'm not an ECU coder myself!). But when we discussed the interactions he's had with dealers he admitted that it wasn't something the dealers would do. Whether they don't know HOW to do it or whether it's not worth their time or what, I don't know.

As I've already said, dealers will just flash the ECU with the latest version of your ECU if they think that there are any possible issues. The method which they do this, it doesn't matter what was there, it just gets overwritten.

You can then later take your car back to your ECU vendor to be reflashed.

^^ What he said. The other potential issue is how APR leaves a software "stamp" in your ecu so even reverted back to "stock" it's not actually stock, it is the APR interpretation of stock, which introduces all kinds of fun and games if you get the sample tune to try out and then decide on another tuner, correct?.....

The "APR interpretation of stock" is another misconception/misunderstanding which comes from certain other ECU vendors not being able to overwrite the ECU with their software unless the entire flash is removed (as opposed to the "trial period" expiring). If you get a Revo trial or flash, then APR can overwrite it. If you get an APR trial or flash, then Revo can overwrite it. But not all tuners use the same writing method. Particularly people using hand-held tuning hardware will run into issues if you've currently have a flash on the car. Therefore, if you do get a flash and what to use an alternative company BE UPFRONT AND HONEST WITH THAT COMPANY and they'll advise you whether you need to go back to the current company and have their flash removed, or whther the alternate company can do it for you. (This information comes directly from Chris @ Revo and Arin @ Revo from a thread on that subject overseas, can't remember which forum otherwise I'd link it).

When you get the APR tune, they read your car's "stock tune", then add their switching software, any tunes and features you request, and then write it back. So it really is your car's original stock tune. But yes, obviously there are "hooks" in somewhere in the ECU to catch the ECU switching/security lockout operation, and there are encrypted software in other areas of the ECU's member.

All ECU vendors have the same situation. No software vendor (automotive or otherwise) can have software on a device just "evaporate" so it is completely undetectable by someone with the right skills, software and hardware.

HOWEVER, again, as it has been mentioned several times. The reason that multiple vendors state that their tunes are not detectable is because of that last comment - skills, software, hardware.


And now I'll make a comment that I've made several times before. Any modification you do to a car can cause problems, and impact warranty if that goes on to cause problems. Changing your wheels, stereo, suspensions, putting on tint etc - all of these have caused problems to members of this forum who have then gone on to try and make warranty claims.

Looking at the company, vendor and product and also risk associated with a modification is all part of the evaluation you should be performing when deciding what you will do with your vehicle. If you think there is too much risk, then maybe you're looking at the wrong product, vendor, company, or maybe the entire topic is just not for you...

I personally don't understand the obsession some people have with attempting to hide what they are doing...



Edit: Argh, Guy_H got in whilst I was responding. Guy - if you want me to delete this, let me know. Ta

[gavs]

First up, Guy, I am not here to slander you or your business, if it has come accross that way, I sincerley apologise because I know that you and your team produce fantastic products and if you can remember, I am generally one of the first to congratulate you on the cars you present as APR Austalia or Harding Performance in the Motor magazine Hot tuner challenge.

Second, I am going to do what MANY people refuse to do on forums, I will admit that I was wrong. Shocking, I know. Corey, thank you for clarifying that for me.

Corey, I'm not on an APR bashing mission here, I'm just wanting for people to understand certain details which seem to be left in the dark for people who may only browse this section of the forum. I too was in the dark until I read the forum that Guy linked to so I now am clearer on what does and doesn't happen, thank you Guy.

Why can't some tuners write over APR software when I get trial software

Because they are not doing it correctly.

We can write over anyones code.

VW can write over anyones code.

These guys are just trying to extract the calibration data so they can mess with the maps. This is dangerous! You should alway start tuning with a fully stock binary.

When an APR trial finishes you are running the same calibration that came with your car, not an APR version or recreation of it. The reason some tuners can't do it is because the ECU is encrypted so no one can steal our program switching technology. When they try to pull out the code, it makes no sense to them.

The code will not appear or run any differently to any VW/Audi dealership scanning or logging the car.

This is extracted from the above mentioned post that Guy linked to. Arin has indeed confirmed that they do leave some software installed into your ECU. Now, not to sound biased or misconstrued, here is the remainder of that post:

What if I still want to use these tuners?

Go to an APR dealer. Select stage 1 software. When giving the option to select programs, only choose stock. This will flash the ECU w/o encryption.

Were the dealers lying to me?

No. They just didn't understand the question. This computer ecu stuff is pretty hard to explain sometimes. People don't know what a full binary is, calibration sectors, etc etc. What they told you all along is true. APR Stock mode and APR after trial software is the 100% exact same calibration, bit for bit, that came with your ECU when you bought the car or were last flashed by VW.

So yes, if you have an APR trial installed, you can get the ECU reverted back to stock, but ONLY if you go back to the APR dealer that originally installed it and like highlighted in that thread, this is a communication issue which has stemmed from a specific, not-overley pleasant or communicative dealer who will not be named.

If the dealers involved just do this in the first place -as which should potentially be part of the quality systems- that you communicate to the customer STRAIGHT UP what will and won't be happening to their car and document it in a disclaimer. Yeah, it COULD take time and effort but jeez, is it that much of an effort to commit to when we can all see the crap that gets posted on forums about this company all over the world?

Some aftermarket companies around seem to forget that a brand new car, even a second hand car is the biggest purchase many of us will ever make so when it comes to doing electronic wizardry to them, we ALL want to know what's going on and want some reassurance. It's not like the old days of just a mechanical turn here, twist there and boom, more power.....

Communication, acurate and truthful, transparent conveyance of information is the problem and I for one, will admit that if it wasn't for Guy's link to what Arin had said, I still would be in the dark. FOrums, they can be helpfull but damn, they can unfortunately also be the root of evil too.

Now Guy, about that DSG and LSD upgrade....

[Guy_H]

Gav's, I think you could have a disclaimer about everything in the entire world - as Arin mentioned:

"APR Intake Disclosure
Please be advised, after installing this intake, if you chose to have another tuner install their own intake, they may or may not be able to do so if they do not own the tools necessary for a proper install."

"Gav's leaving house disclosure
Gav, please be advised when you leave your house, you could trip & fall on the sidewalk, you could also be bitten by a dog, stung by a bee or hit by a bus. Please be advised"

We could have one (a disclosure statement) about engine mounts, airfilters, intakes, engine mounts, stickers, everything - where would it end?

You would hope that whoever is tuning your car has the correct & proper tools to do so, otherwise I personally wouldn't go near them (but thats my opinion). We have the ability to recover & reflash ECU's that have been screwed up by other tuners, even if erased.

Anyway, it's your choice on who you let work on your car - believe me, we know the new Polo GTI & its ECU very well, our switching & security lockout features are alone in the market place to the best of my knowledge.

[Corey_R]

It's alright gavs, it's not about being wrong or right, just about trying to get to the bottom of a topic which is often very confusing - especially since there are so many people who make comments with so many different motives

I thought I'd clarify something though in case you or someone else reading isn't sure why the "trial software" gets left on the car:

So yes, if you have an APR trial installed, you can get the ECU reverted back to stock, but ONLY if you go back to the APR dealer that originally installed it

The reason that the trial is left on the car is so that the user can then call the dealer back, give their payment details, and then receive the code to permanently unlock it, without having to go back to the dealer. Therefore it's a convenience thing.

There's also the technical reason that software can't just evaporate.

But then you have the "communication issues" you've mentioned. Once the trial finishes it automatically reverts to stock. Your car's original stock tune. However, the aftermarket software is still there inactive and hidden. So it's more technically correct (and less chance of communication issues) if it's stated that you return to the APR dealer to have the trial software removed.

There has never been anything stopping the customer from going back to get the trial software removed once they're done, probably apart from inconvenience, or the above communication issue. Whether you need to or not is dependent on if you are then going to use a tuner who can't flash over it. As Guy_H mentioned, it doesn't affect VW dealers...