Why you need to use 504/507 oils in FSI/TSI/TDI engines!

[brad]

Like in here PD cam failure - Data collection thread - TDIClub Forums I must admit that many in US tried to use a different oil and even monitored their UOA but still their diesel engines had failed.

You can be open minded when you have the TSI engine, but I wouldn't be experimenting too much with the late model TDI engine.

That's tops. Reference to a 2009 thread on Pump Duese Engines that VW no longer sell, referring to a specific problem with the cams that at a cursory glance appears to be unavoidable even if the correct VW oil was used. Sounds more like a materials engineering issue than a lubrication issue.

[brad]

Mobil1 ESP5W30 officially sold in Au is made in France and is made from group4 base oil rather than from refined mineral oil (group3 base oil). The Mobil1 from US would be made from group3 base oil, since the law in US allows the oil manufacturers to use group3 base oil and still put on label "Synthetic" .

Attachment 8517

Sent from my GT-N8000

Thanks

Interesting information.

[Transporter]

That's tops. Reference to a 2009 thread on Pump Duese Engines that VW no longer sell, referring to a specific problem with the cams that at a cursory glance appears to be unavoidable even if the correct VW oil was used. Sounds more like a materials engineering issue than a lubrication issue.

Ok, lets do it again then, start experimenting with the current engines and maybe we can read all about it in 5 years time.

Now, put the tempting to prove who is wrong and who is right aside and also consider the facts that there are many PD engines made before 2006 which didn't fail and are still running.

I saw a few T5s with 5cyl. PD engine where the owner thought that he knew better, after all he followed the forums where many open minded people posted and he used Penrite HPRDiesel 5W40 right from the first oil change and his cam failed at 85,000km.

[brad]

transporter
We both know the safe answer to anyone asking "what oil should I use" is "refer VW recomndation" but that's not the question that was being asked.

You are right, I'm sure there are many PD engines that were made before 2006 that are still running and a percentage of them probably haven't used the recomended VW oil.

Sure, you know 1 guy who's engine croaked but what about all the other guys who's engines didn't croak? Was the cam failure due to a failure in the lubricant or due to a materials engineering failure in the cam itself? How was this failure diagnosis verified?

If the VW recomended lubricant is the only choice for VW engines then why does it appear that so many members of this forum & other forums are experiencing engine failures & excessive oil consumption when they have run their engines in IAW the manufacturers specification?

If the VW recomendations are so good then why is it that you personally choose to ignore VWs recomended change intervals? Surely you can't just pick & choose the technical information that suits your stance but ignore the other information that you disagree with?

It would be an outright mistruth to state or believe that (for instance) VW504.00/507.00 is the pinnacle of lubrication chemistry & that no alternatives exist.

Anyway, I think you've proved what I was saying earlier, so thanks for that.

[Transporter]

I've never agreed with the VW recommended oil change intervals and was always saying that the engine lasts longer in a better condition when the engine oil is changed more frequently. Just look how many transmissions fail these days.

I would have to have rocks in my head to assume that VW507.00 is the best universal engine oil out there. But it's the safest choice for your VAG engine especially for the TDI.

I was Amsoil oils distributor in Adelaide for a few years, it is one of the best synthetic oils, but would I use it in my MY05 T5 PD engine? Absolutely not, the VW says 506.01 only and that's what goes in every 6 months.

As for the PD engine failure, I think that the percentage that failed would equal to the percentage those that used not approved oils.

[Diesel_vert]

Wow, old thread with a lot of new posts. Probably best if I split up my replies by user (in order of appearance).

Now I've been trying to research the different brands of VW 504/507 approved oils and comparing them, and many (on this site and other forums) continue to reiterate that the important factor is the VW approval, don't worry too much about the brand.

However, it got me thinking about the different groups like 3, 4, 5 etc. which relate to whether an oil is 100% fully synthenic or otherwise (hydro cracked, synthesized)?

Coming from a Jap car (Nissan 180SX) we always liked to go for fully synthenic oils and this was usually the talk. But it seems that since jumping onboard VW, all the talk is about the approval and not the group.

Anyhoo... Anyone care to weigh in on their thoughts on whether the group of the oil matters for our beloved VW's?

Vehicle manufacturers (OEMs) continue to push the envelope in order to extract more performance and efficiency simultaneously. Naturally, engine lubricants do not escape the scrutiny of engineers.

To this end, OEMs have released their own oil specifications (e.g. BMW LL-04, GM dexos 2, MB 229.51, VW 504.00/507.00, etc) which complement industry specifications (e.g. ACEA C3, API SN, ILSAC GF-5, JASO DL-1, etc). This gives OEMs finer and tighter control over the level of lubricant performance.

Most OEM oil specifications are open to the lubricant industry, so any lubricant manufacturer can formulate their own product and submit it to the OEM for certification and approval. This system allows OEMs to guarantee a certain level of performance.

Thus, the onus of selecting the correct lubricant is transferred from the consumer to the vehicle manufacturer. It means that OEMs should have no valid reason to deny a lubricant-related warranty claim (the consumer need not concern themselves with how the OEM recovers its costs).

It also means selecting the correct product is greatly simplified, because an OEM oil specification quantifies a lubricant's level of performance without the consumer needing to know the physics behind motor oils, nor are they left wondering whether a particular product is suitable.

In principle, it wouldn't matter if the product were formulated using vegetable oil as it base stock - if it has OEM approval, then that product is bound by the same performance guarantees.



I think that is the guiding principle of the OEMs (as I understand it). It's not something I advocate with any great fervor, but I think it's a fairly reasonable method of selecting a suitable product. It's not perfect, but I don't think it has too many downsides.



Note: rather than submitting it to the OEM, a lubricant manufacturer may also decide to evaluate it themselves to see whether it would pass OEM requirements. In this case, lubricant manufacturers tend to use the phrase meets or exceeds if they feel confident enough to recommend the product for a particular application.

For example, the label might state something along the lines of:

This product is recommended for, and meets and exceeds the requirements of, VW 504.00/507.00

Or something to that effect. From a certification (and thus, warranty) perspective, these are distinct from approved products. Since lubricant performance hasn't been verified by Volkswagen, they are not bound to accept warranty claims of this nature. Thus, onus is transferred from the vehicle manufacturer and back to the consumer (who would then have to chase the lubricant manufacturer to recover costs).

It also goes without saying that not all products on the market that would pass OEM certification are ever submitted for OEM approval. I'd imagine it's quite a significant decision in terms of investment and development for some companies, so they'd have think carefully if an OEM certification and approval process is worth the cost.

I also noticed that the oils I was looking at for the VW doesn't have info on the group from what I could find.

Vehicle and lubricant manufacturers usually do not release such specific information to the general public.

Now I've got my misses MKV GTI almost due for a service, so I ducked into Autobarn this weekend with their 20% off, and got the 5L Shell Helix Ultra Extra 5w30 (VW504/507) for $60 discounted price, instead of the Liqui Moly Top Tec 4200 5w30 (VW504/507) at $76 discounted price. I went with Shell as this was what my VW service center was using, however they were using the Shell Helix Ultra 5w40 (VW502/505) previously. Since I now know better, I'll be getting them to use VW504/507.

My preference for 504/507 is guided by the contents in my first post, but 502/505 is fine.

And for top ups I can stick with the same Shell brand.

Automotive engine oils are generally considered miscible with each other, irrespective of brand.

Do ensure, however, that the oil used for topping up has a similar performance level to the oil already in the engine.

I read somewhere that Liqui Moly isn't 100% fully synthenic?

Got any thoughts and experiences with Shell Helix Ultra Extra 5w30?

Even Motul from what I have also read

Given the requirements of 504/507, I would expect the formulation of approved products to be composed with a mix of group III, group III+, group IV and group V base stocks (plus additives). If formulated well, such products offer excellent outcomes in terms of OEM requirements (every base stock has their own pros and cons in regards to performance parameters).

It is not likely an approved 504/507 product would predominately be composed of a single base stock.

[Diesel_vert]

The Mobil1 ESP 5W30 (most likely not the one you buy on ebay) is fully synthetic made from group 4 base oil.

Even Penrite who claims that their Enviro+5W30 oil is "fully synthetic ", is just made mostly from the group3 base oil.

Given the requirements of 504/507, I would expect the formulation of approved products to be composed with a mix of group III, group III+, group IV and group V base stocks.

However, the Liqui Moly Top Tec 4200 is a very good oil and I like using it for its high TBN and HTHS, regardless if it was made from the group 3 or group 4 base oil.

I would expect the specifications of VW oil standard 504.00/507.00 to be tightly defined. As such, one would not see much variance in HTHS or TBN values between approved products.

By definition, an approved 504/507 product must have a HTHS value of 3.5 or above, inline with many European OEM oil specifications. As all approved 504/507 products have a viscosity grade of 5W-30, I wouldn't expect these to have a HTHS value above 3.6 (maybe 3.7, tops).

504/507 is also a low-to-mid SAPS oil specification, so typical TBN values will range from 6 to 7 (similar to other Euro low-to-mid SAPS OEM oil specs).

The Mobil1 ESP 5W30 has a higher Flash point than other 504.00/507 oils

Of the approved products available in Australia, that would seem to be the case.

Be careful when you buy the Mobil1 ESP oil (probably any oil) on line for a good price. The chances are, that it is a rebadged oil form the US and therefor it's not made the same way as a legally bought Mobil1 ESP from the AU distributor. However, if you bought the oil on line, then perhaps keep your invoice and the empty bottle that should have the batch no. on it. Though, I don't like your chances, if you have to chase the ebay seller when something goes wrong with your engine and the engine oil is there to blame.

If the label states the product has been approved to 504.00/507.00, then Volkswagen have no grounds to deny a lubricant-related warranty claim. The whole basis of an open OEM certification based system would otherwise be rendered pointless.

Volkswagen may request proof of purchase, but they aren't interested in the product's origin or the nature of the transaction.

For the record, both the label and the print on the 1L bottle states that Mobil 1 Formula ESP 5W-30 was made in Europe. My was purchase was made through GL Lubricants back in 2012, who have an eBay, online and retail presence (in Regents Park, Sydney).

Mobil1 ESP5W30 officially sold in Au is made in France and is made from group4 base oil rather than from refined mineral oil (group3 base oil). The Mobil1 from US would be made from group3 base oil, since the law in US allows the oil manufacturers to use group3 base oil and still put on label "Synthetic" .

Germany is the only developed market that defines synthetic motor oil as 100% PAO.

Mobil products that do not fall into this category are labelled as SHC Synthese Technology in Germany, and Fully Synthetic in others. It reflects their decision to formulate their products with a combination of their newly developed group III+ (Mobil Visom) base stock, with group IV (PAO) and group V (ester) base stocks.

I think that products made with a combination of group III+, IV and V base stocks is of sufficient quality that I feel comfortable referring to them as synthetic.

The next big thing for motor oils is probably the mass market commercialisation of GTL base stocks (also group III+).

Also, any high quality oil that is approved for others like BMW, MB would be at least as expensive as the 507.00 oil.

Exactly.

[Diesel_vert]

There seems to be very strong view that only VW approved oils are adequate for our cars and that anything less may be disastrous.

Not disastrous - just not guaranteed by Volkswagen, and thus, not a known quantity from the perspective of an ordinary consumer.

There must be many less well off or remote places where the correct VW approved oils are not available or Joe from the local garage uses the incorrect oil.

That's just an inevitable downside of operating any European vehicle outside of Europe. Same deal applies with service, repairs, parts and consumables.

'Twas always thus, and always thus will be.

I understand that a low SAPS oil is required to extend the life of the DPF but why can't a low SAPS oil approved for BMW, Mercedes Benz, Renault or Hyundai with long drain, 15,000 km service intervals provide similar protection for our VWs.

It would be unlikely there are no alternative products on market which can be successfully used in an application that calls for a VW oil specification.

Part of the reason why so few people recommend using such products, irrespective of their suitability, is accountability.

If a lubricant without the required OEM certification or approval is used, then the onus of responsibility is transferred from the vehicle manufacturer to the consumer.

In the event that a lubricant-related warranty claim is denied by the vehicle manufacturer, on the basis that an unapproved or unsuitable lubricant was used, the consumer would then need to file a warranty claim with the lubricant manufacturer to recover costs.

I service my Passat at the dealer which use the VW approved Castrol oil.

Castrol is Volkswagen's commercial and technical partner, but one is not beholden to use exclusively Castrol engine lubricants.

I understand that our best option is to use a VW approved oil as it will maintain our warranty.

My question is not price related as I understand that all good oils will cost about the same. This question is if you are stuck out in the middle of nowhere and are low on oil or need an oil change and you are 2000km from VW oil, I shouldn't loose sleep in using a high quality non VW approved oil in a TSI engine. I appreciate that you should be better prepared if you are traveling into the never never and that by being on this forum we would be, but there are Mr & Mrs Average touring the outback in their Touareg that are less OCD.

In an emergency or in life threatening situations, pragmatism (to me) dictates that any oil is better than no oil. Human > machine

VW are manufactured in South Africa, Mexico, Brazil and China. What do they do if they are in the middle of the amazon and need oil??

Developing economies have no need for advanced and relatively expensive lubricants (just for starters), as local infrastructure, fuel quality and market conditions does not allow the deployment of the latest advances in automotive technology.

The use of 504.00/507.00 is not permitted in China, due to fuel quality concerns. Such markets are covered by 501.01, 502.00, 505.00 or 505.01 (as required).

Despite all this, the reality is that, even in these markets, operating a European-designed vehicle still takes a bit of forethought.

[Diesel_vert]

I'm also interested is there better oils than what's recommended.

I'm sure there are products on the market that surpass what the VW oil specifications require. Some of these products might already have VW approval, and obviously, some do not.

The issue comes from definitively establishing what these products are.

To that, I cannot provide an answer that would meet my own standards for objectivity.

If I own a 1970 model Toyota corolla, I don't have to use the best Synthetic oil but I can.

Modern cars need modern infrastructure, modern fuels and modern lubricants to perform as the maker intended.

Each model is often reflective of the technology that was present in its era, so it is an inescapable aspect of motoring in general.

[Transporter]

Given the requirements of 504/507, I would expect the formulation of approved products to be composed with a mix of group III, group III+, group IV and group V base stocks.




I would expect the specifications of VW oil standard 504.00/507.00 to be tightly defined. As such, one would not see much variance in HTHS or TBN values between approved products.

By definition, an approved 504/507 product must have a HTHS value of 3.5 or above, inline with many European OEM oil specifications. As all approved 504/507 products have a viscosity grade of 5W-30, I wouldn't expect these to have a HTHS value above 3.6 (maybe 3.7, tops).

Mate, I have no time to give you such detailed respond like you. But, when I say the Penrite is made mostly from the group3 base oil, I think it's obvious that MOSTLY means the Penrite is close to mineral or as you may prefer is more semisynthetic rather than fully synthetic.

You say there are small differences in HTHS and TBN between the brands, of course there are, and as long as they use the decimal point, the difference between HTHS 3.5 and HTHS 3.7 is still difference otherwise they wouldn't bother with the decimal point.

TBN - some 507.00 oils has 5.8 some 6.5 again to me it's a difference and similar to flash point 210C compared to 248C is a significant difference to me.

When Germans give the oil approvals, I'm sure that some brands are passing just as a borderline and some exceeds their requirements.

I've spent a bit of time calling to oil companies, wanted to get some data that they've left out from their data sheets and can tell you that they were not willing to tell which group or what percentage of group3 base oil is their oil made from. Penrite said "mostly" group3 base oil, Fuchs Titan refused to say and gave no other info than is already out there.