Why you need to use 504/507 oils in FSI/TSI/TDI engines!

[Maverick]

So why have we been told to use 502.00 high-SAPS oils in our FSI or TSI engines?

BTW, is this still the official recommendation for Australia?

Some dealers only use 504.00/507.00 oils. Highway Volkswagen in Brisbane have been using Castrol SLX Professional Longlife III 5W-30 for all their servicing for at least 2 years now.

Not sure about the Mk 6 but I assume it's 504.00/507.00 across the board now.

[brad]

perhaps not exactly a question for this thread, but, I am unsure as to why in the Aus manual there are (if my recollection serves me right) 2 options for VW approved oils in the MK6 GTi. Obviously, one is the 504/507 (long life?) and the other is, and i cannot specifically recall, a 501 or 505... One would assume, from the way the manual is written, that either meets specification, and that the non 504/507 is for NON long life.

Given that, what is "non" long life???

I ask as I have 2 containers of Mobil1 0W in the garage left over from the prior vehicle that was heavily driven (having been accused as a tightwad spending 90+ bucks for 5L on oil must be perplexing! Let alone having 2 spare containers of it). Now it meets one "standard" (ie the non-long life) but obviously not the 504 etc etc.

Let me make it clear, I am not intending to use it on the GTI, but am for my own knowledge, trying to ascertain why there are 2 different "options" and what the difference between the 2 is...and hopefully concurrently enlightening a few others that may be misled.

non long life is 15,000km/12 month changes. It is 502.00 spec for petrol engines.

long life is variable service intervals (504/507 spec). I'm not sure how that applies to VWs but on a Skoda 1.8TSI that means anwhere between (IIRC) ~18,000km to 36,000km depending on how the car is driven, number of cold starts, particulate content of oil (there are sensors in the engine) and other factors.

Australia doesn't do variable servicing, so in theory we don't need 504/507 and 502.00 is just fine for 15,000km/12month service intervals if you wish to simply maintain warranty. We do have many of the factors that are considered severe service, therefore, for all the faffing about & mystery everyone likes to attribute to VW oil specs, you may as well just run 504/507 & be done with it. edit: as even most Service Advisors/Managers don't understand the oil requirements.

If your GTI tends to use a bit of oil then feel free to top it up with the Mobil stuff. It won't be an issue.

Or if your in Sydney, I'll buy it off you for $45 if you really want to clear out your garage.

[prise]

I'm of the opinion that although the sulphur level is high enough not to warrant the use of variable service intervals, it's low enough such that mid-SAPS oils like 504/507 shouldn't have much trouble coping, which would negate the main concern of using reduced SAPS oils.

I'm interested in your understanding of the link between fuel sulphur levels and oil change intervals. One theory I've read is that the sulphur combines with water produced during combustion to create small amounts of sulphuric acid which builds up in the oil over time, particulalrly if the car is used for a lot of short trips. I also have read that the 507 oils contain higher levels of corrosion inhibitors.

[Diesel_vert]

You've pretty much hit the nail on the head.

Engine oils have what's known as the TBN (Total Base Number). It is a measure of an oil's ability to deal with acid formation which could lead to corrosive wear. The higher the sulphur content in fuel, the higher the potential for acid formation, which leads to faster TBN depletion. It's one factor (amongst others) that ultimately limits the drain interval of an oil.

A brand new oil can have a TBN anywhere from 0.0 to 80.0 depending on application, though typically for ACEA Ax/Bx oils (higher SAPS) it's around 8.0 to 12.0, and for ACEA C3/C4 oils (reduced SAPS) around 6.0 to 8.0, but exceptions exist I'm sure. And though still the subject of debate, generally once TBN falls below 2.0 the oil needs to be changed, depending on the engine and/or oil. Hence the concern of using reduced SAPS oils in areas with high sulphur fuels.

One might think the obvious solution is to use oils with a high TBN reserve, but that has its own disadvantages. Aside from higher cost, it can lead to premature deposit formation (a possible cause of valve deposits in the Lubrizol presentation, perhaps?).

I think 50 ppm is a safe level for 504/507 to deal with, given that VAG introduced this oil spec sometime during 2004 - the same year when ACEA released the new reduced SAPS "Cx" category (25/10/2004) and when the European refineries had to meet the deadline for Euro 4 fuels (01/01/2005). Coincidence? Maybe not.

So I would guess that while Euro 4 fuels allows the use reduced SAPS oils (which reduces valve deposit formation), it's the Euro 5 fuels which allow the really extended drain intervals to be achieved whilst still using these reduced SAPS oils.

[Diesel_vert]

Regarding variable service intervals, in my opinion, I still think Australia is better off using fixed service intervals - even if we had Euro 5 fuels across the board and everyone used 504/507 oils - simply due to our operating environment.

By reading VAG's LongLife Servicing brochure and looking at list of conditions typical of each servicing regime...

LongLife Regime (variable - between 15,000 km/1 year and 30,000 km/2 years)
To obtain the most benefit from the LongLife service regime, the car should be generally driven in a style/condition of use listed below:
• Mainly longer distance journeys.
• Limited number of cold starts, engine is kept at operating temperature over a longer period of time.
• Daily mileage above approx. 25 miles (40 km).
• Constant speed.
• Vehicle used regularly.

Time/Distance Regime (fixed - 15,000 km/1 year)
If your car is driven in a style listed below, it may be more appropriate to opt for the Time and Distance regime:
• Extremely uneconomical driving style i.e. continual maximum acceleration i.e. ‘foot to floor’.
• Vehicle fully loaded.
• Mainly short journeys.
• Frequent cold starts.
• Frequent hill climbs.
• Frequent towing.
• City centre driving.

... when push comes to shove, I'd bet most of us would encounter more conditions listed in the latter rather than the former.

[brad]

Regarding variable service intervals, in my opinion, I still think Australia is better off using fixed service intervals - even if we had Euro 5 fuels across the board and everyone used 504/507 oils - simply due to our operating environment.

By reading VAG's LongLife Servicing brochure and looking at list of conditions typical of each servicing regime...

LongLife Regime (variable - between 15,000 km/1 year and 30,000 km/2 years)
To obtain the most benefit from the LongLife service regime, the car should be generally driven in a style/condition of use listed below:
• Mainly longer distance journeys.
• Limited number of cold starts, engine is kept at operating temperature over a longer period of time.
• Daily mileage above approx. 25 miles (40 km).
• Constant speed.
• Vehicle used regularly.

I tick all the above boxes but I think I'd rather do 15,000km services with 502.00 than variable with 504.00. As it stands my dealer uses 504.00 anyway (as I don't think he understands how it all works), so not really an issue. What I dont understand is why you would do 7500km changes with 504.00 - but that's just me. Those that do, fill yer boots.

[Transporter]

For these who have VCDS and are able to change from fixed to variable interval.
If you want a better understanding why you need to use 504.00/507.00 oils in fixed service intervals or why we only have fixed service intervals in OZ using expensive oil.

Do the following: Change engine oil and the oil filter, change to variable servicing with VCDS, drive 2-3 months in the city stop start traffic only and you get the message "Service in 3,000 km" with in 4-5,000km.

Non of our cars will get to 15,000km/12 months and when I change the oil usually at 7,500km message is already there on the display.

Of course if you drive long distances it will be different and you may be OK for variable servicing.

To Brad: you forgot to say that you don't want to preserve the car for the second owner and that's one of the main reasons why you go for the cheaper oil. But many of us keep their cars for longer time than 3 years.

To others: Keep in mind that cheaper oils will leave sludge and varnish in your engine especially, if you go for 15,000km/12 months interval and drive under severe driving conditions and even if you would use the used UOA, no Used Oil Analysis will give you report on how much of it is deposited in your engine, until is too late.

Oil is still the cheapest component in the engine and extended oil changes are driven by environment concerns only.

So, IMO 15,000km/12months in OZ is spot on. What oil you use will affect the wear and tear that will be visible on the engine after you pass 100-150,000km.

[brad]

For these who have VCDS and are able to change from fixed to variable interval.
If you want a better understanding why you need to use 504.00/507.00 oils in fixed service intervals or why we only have fixed service intervals in OZ using expensive oil.

Do the following: Change engine oil and the oil filter, change to variable servicing with VCDS, drive 2-3 months in the city stop start traffic only and you get the message "Service in 3,000 km" with in 4-5,000km.

Non of our cars will get to 15,000km/12 months and when I change the oil usually at 7,500km message is already there on the display.

Of course if you drive long distances it will be different and you may be OK for variable servicing.

To Brad: you forgot to say that you don't want to preserve the car for the second owner and that's one of the main reasons why you go for the cheaper oil. But many of us keep their cars for longer time than 3 years.

To others: Keep in mind that cheaper oils will leave sludge and varnish in your engine especially, if you go for 15,000km/12 months interval and drive under severe driving conditions and even if you would use the used UOA, no Used Oil Analysis will give you report on how much of it is deposited in your engine, until is too late.

Oil is still the cheapest component in the engine and extended oil changes are driven by environment concerns only.

So, IMO 15,000km/12months in OZ is spot on. What oil you use will affect the wear and tear that will be visible on the engine after you pass 100-150,000km.

Well, I don't think Castrol Edge Sport 5w-30 is really a cheaper oil (even though it's hydro-cracked or whatever it is and not PAO) but that's a whole new can of worms isn't it

I just signed up for year 3 of the Octy & unless my transport requirements change (eg: not needing a biggish boot) and I decide to get a BMW 125 Coupe then I'll probably keep it for another 4 years.... which is when my daughter will get her licence & the car will be worth nothing, so she can have it then - so realistically I'll have the Octy until at least 200,000km.

[hooba]

What I dont understand is why you would do 7500km changes with 504.00 - but that's just me.

Does anybody know what type of oil VW uses from the factory 502.00 or 504.00?

[Transporter]

Common sense is telling me that for the diesel engines they use 507.00 right from the start since you cant drive on it for year without any ill effect on the DPF.
So most likely petrol engines get the same oil.