New Golf Rs and GTIs will have updated software that can disable ESP completely

[ethosguy]

MY12 models only built from May 2011 onwards:

VW R models' new ESP system - Autocar.co.uk

Cheers
WJ

...so even the new off isn't really off...use the brakes during a 'slide'' and 'they reactivate the ESP.

When is off actually ooooooooooffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff? You know, until I turn it back ooooooooonnnnnnnnn....

Granted almost always (not always though) if you are going for the brakes in a mid corner slide then youré going round for a spin. Brakes will accelerate the gyration rotataion.

False alarm?

I must be getting old 'cos all this new age looking after people legal sue your corporate arse paranoia BS really gets under my skin. Too bad I can't afford a proper modern car like a 458...ah wait a moment, flappy paddle S/W gearbox only...OK Porsche GT2 or 3 then.

Still, it'd be interesting to see the comparitive lap times between ESP less on and a bit more less on (sic) of a quality steerer...to see how the complaints of ''interference non-adjustable in corner attitude'' register in time.

[Corey_R]

As I said, we will have to agree to disagree first-hand experience vs heresay is not much of an argument anyway.

You can disagree with me and the inventors of ABS if you would like, but lets clear this up, it is NOT my opinion or heresay, it is fact.

What I like about this is this really is something that is easily proven.
First, a quote straight from Bosch' website (Just in case you don't know, they invented it, and their system is still used by the majority of ABS systems, including in our VW's):

“ABS substantially improves driving stability and usually shortens the brake path as well,” says Wolfgang Drees, member of the management board at Robert Bosch GmbH and head of its Chassis Systems division.

There is also this extensive study by RACV which draws on their on investigation and numerous other studies and tests.

It shows that on a dry good condition ashpalt, ABS does not decrease or "will not substantially reduce stopping distances in dry conditions". It should be obvious why, your tyres and brakes are only as good as they are, software can't make them better. "However, in wet slippery conditions, ABS is very effective in reducing stopping distances". "A locked wheel may provide higher deceleration than ABS on surfaces such as gravel and snow that allow a build up of material in front of a sliding wheel". ABS increases gravel stops "by an average by 27%".

"In almost all manoeuvres vehicle stability was superior when ABS was operation".

And that final quote is why we have ABS in all our cars. So please don't resort to making claims like "heresay" just because you don't agree with the experts who've produced these extensive studies, or the inventors who are still the leading manufacturers of the product!


So now that the topic of ABS is undeniably closed, you may all continue on with the topic of ESP

[chylld]

mate the topic of ABS was already closed by post #35 in this thread. but you seem to have put a lot of effort into that post, so i trust it makes you feel better - good for you!

...so even the new off isn't really off...use the brakes during a 'slide'' and 'they reactivate the ESP.

i'm wondering what VW are envisaging by forcing the ESP back on if you dab the brakes whilst sliding. i think they're just assuming that people will hit the brakes when they panic and that they don't know what they're doing - but what if an enthusiastic R driver flicks his R into a left-hand corner, gets some angle on it, tries to adjust with the throttle and then dabs the brake? if ESP cuts in, it'll flick him violently back to straight ahead, and if he still has the wheel turned right from the slide then i can't see that ending nicely

[kaanage]

You can disagree with me ....

I thought that chylld had already agreed to all that (well he/she, didn't comment on the gravel/snow thing) in his/her subsequent post replying to mine.

i'm wondering what VW are envisaging by forcing the ESP back on if you dab the brakes whilst sliding. i think they're just assuming that people will hit the brakes when they panic and that they don't know what they're doing - but what if an enthusiastic R driver flicks his R into a left-hand corner, gets some angle on it, tries to adjust with the throttle and then dabs the brake?

If you're already sliding sideways with high G forces, then dabbing the brakes will almost certainly put you into a spin as the weight transfer will unload the rear before static friction is resumed.

[Lima]

...The most common cause is basically a split second lack of concentration...

Erm, isn't that the a perfect moment for ESP do its thing, ie. to hep try and correct an unexpected situation?

You're right inasmuch as ESP cannot cover all scenarios and it is not a means to defeating the laws of physics, but if you think you can react more quickly and more effectively than a well sorted ESP unit can, well, you're vastly overestimating your abilities, haha.

Just explain to me how you can personally brake four wheels individually and I'll start to pay opinions like this some respect.

[Lima]

Still, it'd be interesting to see the comparitive lap times between ESP less on and a bit more less on (sic) of a quality steerer...to see how the complaints of ''interference non-adjustable in corner attitude'' register in time.

But that's completely missing the point of ESP. In most cases it is not designed to be a driver aid for track use. It is designed to assist a driver who has lost control, most likely in a completely unexpected situation, eg. someone running out on the road, another vehicle crossing into your path and requiring evasive action etc.

I think people forget that other people use the road too, and while that happens, it doesn't matter how mad you think your skillz are you can never rule out the unexpected.

[chylld]

If you're already sliding sideways with high G forces, then dabbing the brakes will almost certainly put you into a spin as the weight transfer will unload the rear before static friction is resumed.

I was thinking more left-foot braking, enough to slow the wheels down a bit (just to adjust your line) but not enough to flick the car in the opposite direction (as if you came off the throttle while drifting an FR)

There's also the risk of not noticing that ESP has come back on, so say you somehow get through the first corner and then you try to flick your car into the next corner at speed - and the ESP gives you a bucketload of understeer... ??

[Lima]

This is the quote from the Autocar article:

The system will only cut back in should the driver press the brake pedal in the middle of an ‘emergency’, be it if control of the vehicle is lost by the driver or if they want the car to straighten up by itself. If the brake pedal is not depressed by the driver the ESP system will remain inactive.

It sounds like the same system employed on the MY10 S3s and beyond (it may have been introduced on MY09 models come to think of it). Here's the page from my manual:


(apologies the focus isn't great)

[Lima]

I was thinking more left-foot braking, enough to slow the wheels down a bit (just to adjust your line) but not enough to flick the car in the opposite direction (as if you came off the throttle while drifting an FR)

That's interesting actually. Our cars have a system that allows minimal "left-foot braking" scenarios. That is, you cannot apply the brake and accelerator for any more than 1 or 2 seconds. If you do the ECU will cut engine power until you take your foot off the brake. I doubt this aspect would be affected if the ESP has been switched off. If I remember I'll try it out on the S3.

[kaanage]

This is the quote from the Autocar article: middle of an ‘emergency’

But how does the system decide if it is an emergency?