New Golf Rs and GTIs will have updated software that can disable ESP completely

[AdamD]

Well, people can't really take responsibility when they're already dead. And unfortunately they can't help or take responsibility for the poor the people they've run into and either killed or permanently disabled.

Especially with the Golf R, if you are actually driving so "hard" that you could even tell whether the ESP cuts in or not when you've pressed the "Off" button, then I'm sorry, but you're already being an idiot and not being responsible, pure and simple.

This of course is just my opinion, but I know it's also an opinion shared by many advanced driving instructors and even race car drivers.
Again - I'm only talking about being able to fully disable the ESP on the road. I fully support being able to fully disable ESP for the track.

I agree entirely that there should never be a need to disable ESP on the road, nor an excuse. But for performance driving under controlled conditions, it should be at the driver's discretion. The technology isn't there for the car to make that decision for the driver. So I think the driver should be able to make that decision. After all, they're licensed to.

[Corey_R]

But for performance driving under controlled conditions, it should be at the driver's discretion.

That I agree with.
And unless the road has been closed off (like a targa competition), "controlled conditions" basically = track only

[Ideo]

ESP can be a hinderance in my current car.

In particular, getting onto Military Road at Neutral Bay at around 7pm from the Caltex service station.

Accelerate hard because you need to due to small gaps, hit the bus lane paint, ESP gets triggered, and suddenly you are crawling out into traffic. ESP off and there is no hint of wheel spin or loss of control. Just another electronic device.

I rarely turn it off (mainly when I have to do something like that), and it is once in a blue moon when it ever comes on, but it is a bit like having someone looking over your shoulder all the time.

It's a bit pathetic that "tyres" like Blue Streak are allowed to be sold, and that there is no real vehicle safety checks done, but ESP is mandatory on cars. Talk about warped perspectives.

But, it is easier to legislate for nanny-isms than actually assess vehicle safety and dynamics and ensure a decent level of tyres, shocks and the like are sold.

ETA, and if you are relying on ESP to get you out of trouble, then clearly you aren't reading the road very well anyway, and, well, darwin is a merciless mistress ain't she.

[Corey_R]

Yeah, I get what you're saying Ideo.

I know of a few people with Toyota Supra's with big turbo systems that just have to turn the ESP off when it rains, otherwise the cars literally won't move due to the ESP being that badly programmed. Thankfully things have moved on since then, and since your S3, and in the Golf R, with how much it lets you have before it interveens, trust me when I say, you would already be in trouble or would be being very irresponsible for it to make a difference (when it's set to "Off").

This topic came up already in the past few days, and the topic of the VW track days was bought up. Those of us who were lucky enough to go to the VW Track days last year already know that when set to Off, the ESP will let the car slide sideways by more than a car width without cutting in (which I experienced personally!), will let the back slide out with the front still in line, and all sorts of fun stuff like that.

And whilst I agree that it would be lovely if everyone was so well trained that they didn't have to worry about things like ESP, the reality is that most people do need it... even most people that think they don't. It's also probably a situation that the people that really dont' need it, are happy to leave it on anyway and just switch it off when they're at the track.

[Ideo]

In that case it probably won't make a difference to me at all.

I hate the ESP in my car because it intervenes so much and when it is not needed. Usually at times you really don't need it. if the new system gets rid of that then I probably won't have as much of an issue and I'm probably just ranting and raving like an old man confounded by new fangled technology for no good reason

[WhiteJames]

MY12 models only built from May 2011 onwards:

VW R models' new ESP system - Autocar.co.uk

Cheers
WJ

[REXman]

Definitely a fan of ESP off. Next service update please!!

I tried coming in hard round a bend on my mates track, and just as it starts to get a slide... RROOOOUUUUGGGGH... And your not sliding Amy more.. Meh..

[ethosguy]

Personally I don't believe that we should be able to turn off ESP on the roads. I like the idea that Nissan have with the GTR, where it only allows you to disable it on race tracks. However, given their poor implementation of it (and the fact that it doesn't recognise any of the racetracks here), I'd be happy if it were a case of "allows you to disable it when you're not on a road".

This would of course mean that you had to buy the Sat-Nav option... but tough [/QUOTE]

Does anyone have a link to the actual requirements document for ESP?
Is it only mandatory in VIC at this stage, or have other states also followed?


Personally I don't believe that we should be able to turn off ESP on the roads. I like the idea that Nissan have with the GTR, where it only allows you to disable it on race tracks. However, given their poor implementation of it (and the fact that it doesn't recognise any of the racetracks here), I'd be happy if it were a case of "allows you to disable it when you're not on a road".

This would of course mean that you had to buy the Sat-Nav option... but tough

...even better than the 3 door babyseat opinion IMO...$$$ can't buy this stuff. Surely this is baiting to generate discussion...lol. Like a good moderator would...

Biggest criticism, it seems, of the GTR is the lack of driver involvement. Who do you want driving your car. I for one don't want the software engineers and polititians driving mine. Maybe trains are a better option than this dangerous stuff...like using your own judgment?

Be careful what you wish for...my crystal ball sees speeding tickets by GPS (used in Dakar Rally already), maybe speed limiters by GPS , especially if a car nut (reputed) can advocate non-switchable ESP.

This press release is THE BEST news re: Golf R / GTi; full stop. IMO.

Any one paying attention know F1 has proven traction control, ABS and other driver aids can produce better lap times. Traction control is even how an issue in AMA Supercross - ban it, allow it???

Moto GP is all about electronics and S/W.

So who is really doing the driving, drivers or techos?

They took it from F1 amidts cries of 'Danger , danger Will Robinson', undriveable in the wet...nancy puffs!
Guess what, good drives can do it, not so good ones can't. Good.

I bet Rossi would be happy to see the end of rider aids so he can get on and bag a few more titles before he calls it quits.

However, some years back 'say '05, I've watched a perfectly sound, less than 3yr old Passat run two wheels off the tarmac onto ths dirt, over correct, slew across 2 lanes of a divided highway and slam into an armco; almost straight road, mid-day, clear dry conditions under the 110kph limit.
Incompetent driver??? Probably had a bit of driver doze...Emerged apparently unharmed. Shaken but alive.

Plenty of cars this would have been fatal. With ESP, the over correction would have been contained. The dozey cow would have not crashed, possibly killing / maming herself or others. I'd anticipated her crash before she had and given room for her to have her own acco. If I hadn't ,she'd bounced into me... with first born less than 1yr old inside.

I've watched others 'drivers' slide off a perfectly decent patch of road on other occasions. Go figure?
Do we keep adding and adding to protect the stupid / incompetent from themselves?
YES!
She, the dozey, not much of a driver, cow in other respects might just be a perfect person, someones loved one???

My 2 yr old ABS isn't as good at stopping on loose surfaces as non ABS. I don't agree ABS shortens stopping distances on dirt. A skidding wheel on dirt provides THE best retardation. Steering is not possible at the same time and well, that is why we have ABS.

AFAIK WRC doesn't ban ABS but it isn't used by preference so drivers can control their car.

I hate ABS most of the time I'm driving: How it eases away the brakes when I want something particular to control the car but quite like knowing the majority of other cars have it for 'that' moment.

Most people can't control a car...they go along in it. Everything else is more important than the most important task at hand, tunes included!

I've owned cars that were legal but were, let's say, so demanding to drive I wouldn't let typical drivers use on a wet road. These were my favourites to drive.

I practise my car (and bike too) control when I won't cause harm to others...and use those skills to prevent others from harm(ing me).

Social responsibility, respect, personal restraint, non-intoxicated (any perception degrading / confidence enhancing drug), co-ordination , keen judgement, attention and observation are the best safety 'devices'. But these are seemingly a rare suite of atributes. Just to finish off my rant, speed isn't the road safety problem, bad judgment is.

Non disengable or lordy forbid, GPS ESP control is just far too much Big Brother.

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[Corey_R]

hehe - I like your 'Edit reason'.

But yeah - you're right. ABS does not reduce stopping distances. All it does is allow us to still be able to steer, thus hopefully able to avoid an accident in the middle of a "Panic".

[WhiteJames]

Autocar's Steve Sutcliffe's 2 cents worth on de-activating ESP:

To ESP or not to ESP? - Tester

Cheers
WJ