Golf R -v- Golf GTI

[blanch0b]

hmmmmm happs wine - the fuscia is very unique, its my gf's favourite so we drink it all the time

mazda sp23's are great cars - not too keen on the new design but the old ones are fantastic. my bro had one for 5 years plus until it got damaged in the perth hail storms and he cashed it in for a golf.

going to a GTI will be really nice for you, chalk and cheese in comparison to the sp23 really.... read the rest of the blog to get ur own opinion on the R and the value u will get from it..... im incredibly happy with my GTI - good luck in ur decision

[Happs]

Unfortunately it's basically been pretty much a 4-5 month wait since the R was launched.

Oh really... The sales guy indicated (well said), initially pre-release it was 3 months but demand has been strong and to not expect one this side of 5 months now. The wait is getting longer and longer unfortunately

He said they got 1 in and someone offered sticker price for it so they let it go and ordered another for demo (which still hasn't been delivered).

mazda sp23's are great cars - not too keen on the new design but the old ones are fantastic. my bro had one for 5 years plus until it got damaged in the perth hail storms and he cashed it in for a golf.

going to a GTI will be really nice for you, chalk and cheese in comparison to the sp23 really.... read the rest of the blog to get ur own opinion on the R and the value u will get from it..... im incredibly happy with my GTI - good luck in ur decision

Yeah it's the original Mazda 3 (also not keen on the new smile!). Was the wife's while I had the 6T, now I've inherited it as the daily driver. Good car, but really looking forward to something new and more performance oriented.

I have literally read every page with great interest! At times I have been definitely getting the GTi, then definitely getting the R... and back and forth!! haha.

Local dealer had the GTi for test drive and it was amazing (but I expected that coming from the 3), but I haven't driven the R yet to make my own comparisons.

Probably the only thing holding me back on pulling the trigger on the R without a test drive is the GTi's better low down torque. For most of my driving that would probably be useful, I wouldn't often be sitting between 4,000-6,000 rpm to get the most out of the R in traffic.

[WhiteJames]

REMATCH:


Golf R –v- Golf GTI


The Golf R –v- Golf GTI review conducted several months ago in Canberra, ACT was essentially on a faster flowing B’grade back country roadway. This second-time around, my neighbour Ray and I decided to conduct a back to back review of the Golf R and Golf GTI around the tight, twisting hills of the Boat Shed at Audley, in the Royal National Park - South of Sydney. The review was only short in distance, but the drive from the dealership into the RNP and down to the boat covers a wide range of roadway types and texture, giving us an opportunity to see how each vehicle handled lower speed graded corners.

Neighbour Ray is looking to spend up to 80K on the new ride and has both the GTI and Golf R under consideration to replace his current MKV R32 with H&R sway bars, Haldex Gen III controller and 3.5K Pioneer SATNAV stereo. So this review is in part, dedicated to him. Ray’s a lurker, so you will not hear from him.

A local dealership supplied us with a 3 door Golf R DSG auto with Dynamic Chassis Control (DCC) and 19’ wheels running on 235/35 series rubber. The Golf R in this review had a tad over 350kms on to odometer. In contrast, I brought along my own 5 door Golf GTI DSG auto also fitted with Dynamic Chassis Control sitting on 18” Detroit wheels and 225/40 series tyres having covered more than 11,500km on the odometer since purchased over 4 months ago. Both vehicles were driven using the flappy DSG paddles.

[WhiteJames]

Golf R:


First thing I noticed about the Golf R was that everything felt much more urgent than the GTI. The throttle response, suspension tune, and brakes all felt that bit more focussed towards driver involvement than the Golf GTI. The tuning of the Golf R is very similar to the preceding Golf R32 in this respect. I was very surprised by how much the Golf R resembled the R32 in this type of driving environment.

Leaning on the Golf R in negotiating my first constant radii corner heading downhill had the Golf R leaning quite heavily on the outside front tyre – pushing into mild understeer attempting to control the extra weight of the Golf R. I was surprised that there was no rubbing on the top of the inner fender guard running on the 235 series tyre and despite having 35kg less over the front axle – the Golf R felt uncannily like many R32’s in that the extra weight is tangible in causing some pushing around the apex of the corner.

The 19 optional Golf R wheels with 235/35 series tyres rides quite well – better than expected. It appears that the sidewalls of the 19” 235/35 tyre is softer and has more give in them compared to the standard 18” 225/40 standard wheel combo that can feel like run-flat tyres at times. This detracted front the handling & steering to a degree – a loss of crispness that is inherent with the 225 x 18” wheel/tyre combo.

The Golf R runs on 20% stiffer springs than the GTI. In the tighter corners, the Golf R’s extra weight is apparent and grip level on the bitumen around apex did not feel as high as that of the 126kg lighter GTI. The Golf R does a great job of dispensing the low speed compression bumps in the roadway, ensuring that they do not filter through the chassis into the cabin and the Golf R does not bounce around over medium sized undulations in the tarmac, as in the case of the GTI. The bigger hits in terms of suspension compliance – DCC Sport mode still has the Golf R working hard contain with a very notable thud of the front springs when driving on and off the high compression bump of the low laying bridge adjacent to the Boat Shed at Audley.

The slightly lower ride height of the Golf R aids handling in repeated changes of direction in both uphill and downhill curves. The Volkswagen engineers still managed to create that Grand Tourer (GT) type of ride/handling experience that was also a trademark of the preceding R32 – they are both very similar in this regard.

Placing the Golf R on the roadway inspires confidence, but is not pin-point sharp. In the tight-twisties, the firmer springs in the Golf R do give up some throttle & trail-brake adjustability – this necessitates well executed & judge corner speed and entry lines. On this drive, at lower speeds with 25kph-35kph corners, the better balance front to rear of the Golf R was not apparent as it was at higher speeds on the former review on the country roadways around Canberra. The Golf R did cope with everything the short test run threw at it without any disruption to the chassis or vehicle trajectory when it came to upsetting mid-corner bumps.

Traversing this route, which is very hilly with a myriad of switchbacks, had the turbo pulling harder with a greater degree of linearity in power surge compared to the GTI. Climbing uphill had the Golf R feeling quick with the extra power over the GTI tangible, but uninspiring - with no real troughs or peaks in the power supply to keep things interesting – it’s almost like the power surge is too linear. At lower revs, the Golf R has an edge in the refinement and a meaty deep growl to the exhaust that continues right up through the rev-range.

I conducted another tractability test – this time negotiating a steep long uphill climb in 3rd gear from 45kph to 60kph. Golf R and Golf GTI were about the same in pulling power & acceleration using the flappy DSG paddles. The previous tractability test was down in 6th gear from 60kph to 80kph and had the GTI in front on that occasion.

The steering in the Golf R from Normal to Sport does not seem to change as markedly as that of the GTI – well not on this short drive anyway. As for the White colour of the Golf R – it looks even hotter in real life.

[WhiteJames]

Golf GTI


Golf GTI – DCC ‘Normal’ mode:


The Golf GTI was put through its paces on its first run with DCC mode on ‘Normal’.

What a contrast!

Turn-in into a corner feel slightly better than the Golf R, with the GTI carrying less weight. However, with DCC in Normal mode, it took the GTI longer to settle on its springs when negotiating the switchback corners – this induced some initial understeer with the chassis rolling over the front outside wheel to a slight degree before DCC gathers it up again. Compared to the Golf R in DCC ‘Sport’ mode, the GTI with DCC in ‘Normal’ mode felt less inspiring & bouncy with the chassis taking far too much time to level out the low to medium speed compression bumps. Normal DCC mode in the GTI in a nutshell – felt sloppier and less fluid either going uphill or downhill. It was really difficult to find my rhythm negotiation a series of bends. By the time it took DCC to settle the GTI over roadway irregularities, another bump or corner or combination of both bump in corner would crop up to unsettle the lighter & bouncy GTI. It was difficult to have the GTI gel around me to create that unison of driver and vehicle as one. The roadway is but no means treacherous, but is undulating in many parts with a few big hits along the way – esp. on entry to corners. Due to the greater depth and faster compression of the springs, the GTI also exhibit a greater degree of suspension noise.

The EA888 motor in the GTI with the smaller turbo with turbo manifold incorporated into turbo as one is a different beast altogether. The turbo spools up to much faster, exhibits a couple of peaks & troughs in the power supply around 2500rpm and 4000rpm into max boost, but tapers off earlier. The GTI is also a bit doughier down low and up very high out of the ideal rev range when off boost – being detuned to run on 95RON fuel. The peaks and troughs in the turbo boost make it more difficult to modulate the throttle at certain rev ranges, but can be challenging at the same time. In contrast, the Golf R’s power supply is linearity a tad boring – even though it’s making more power in the process, fuelling does not seem to be ideal – having said that – Volkswagen have done a sterling job of eliminating turbo lag.

Much debate centres on the advantages of AWD over XDS.

Firstly: Both Golf R and Golf GTI have EDL – which the low speed electronic diff lock. At higher speeds: The Golf R relies solely on its AWD grip, whereas the GTI utilises XDS with the inside front brake application pulling the GTI into line, reducing understeer.

The AWD proved to be a greater advantage going up the steep hills, with the Gen IV Haldex pushing 400psi - forcing the rear wheels to share the workload. There is still that trace of the Golf R wanting to push wide and lean heavily on its outside front wheel ascending up steeper inclines, which ultimately causes it to push wide into understeer. Up to 8/10ths the Golf R is great, but still has a fair degree of factory induced understeer washing off speed from apex to corner exit. Going downhill, the AWD system did not offer any real advantage over the XDS in the GTI, as emphasis on front end grip is not so crucial. In contrast, the GTI is more like a lead tipped arrow with a lighter & more adjustable rear end and upgraded beefer rear sway bar.

With the DCC in ‘Normal’ mode – the GTI leaned more heavily on around corners and XDS could be felt working away when pushing on. Oddly enough, the GTI carried less understeer than the Golf R when pressing on around the downhill series of corners. The Golf R is simply relying on the grip of the 235mm/35 series tyres – the GTI has the added benefit of the inner front brake pulling the GTI into line. Where the Golf R was heading from slight to mild understeer on downhill runs, the GTI remained uniform right way around the corner with only a slight amount of understeer.

XDS on the GTI was felt working harder on the up-hill drives from the Boat Shed to the Toll Booth – in retrospect, part of this was attributed to having DCC in Normal mode, rather than Sport mode, as the GTI was leaning earlier with a greater degree into turns – the Golf R in Sport mode was less adjustable, but the tyres gave up earlier than the GTI around the apex of the corner – a combination of extra weight and less suspension compliance. In terms of reducing understeer, XDS on the front wheel drive GTI works more effectively than Golf R all-wheel drive with no-XDS.

Which was better from the back to back drive so far? We’ll, I’d have to pick the Golf R at this stage as it filtered out the bumps better – low, medium & high compression bumps – and was more fluid & less bouncy in ride and chassis control. Power supply was linear but not entirely inspiring - uncannily like the R32 preceding it – only with greater intensity and crispness in feeling.

Hold on:

Did we run the GTI with DCC in Sport to ensure we’re comparing apples with apples...?

... You bet we did.

[WhiteJames]

Golf GTI – DCC ‘Sport’ mode:


The GTI with DCC in ‘Normal’ mode was a bit of a let-down in terms of chassis compliance. XDS worked fabulously, but could be felt from the driver’ seat. The ride was not as well contained, at times slightly affecting the fluidity of the drive experience.

Put the DCC into ‘SPORT’ mode and wow!

What a transformation.

What was a vehicle that struggled to maintain fluency around these bends with added suspension noise and a bouncy disposition over mid corner bumps– all of a sudden and at a flick of a switch – the GTI in Sport mode was now increasing driver confidence to push on with supreme chassis control.

Suspension noise? Gone. Bounciness? Eliminated. Body Roll? No longer present. XDS intervention? Barely perceptible & unobtrusive. The lack of chassis control? History.

The GTI sat flat in corners, turned in much more sharply with greater aggression. When the Golf R was leaning on its outside front tyre pushing wide into understeer with no XDS to aid in keeping it together – the GTI simply got on with the job darting from corner to corner with minimum of fuss – both uphill and downhill. The GTI maintained a greater amount of throttle and trail brake adjustability due to the softer overall spring rate, with the firm ‘Sport’ tuned dampers tightening up the chassis movements - this did wonders for reducing understeer and creating a fast flowing agile hatchback. The GTI rode better in ‘Sport’ mode than it did in ‘Normal’ mode and XDS interfered less so in ‘Sport’ mode with less positive camber change on the outside tyres. It was simply a case of aim & shoot. Jumping up from the low laying Boat-Shed Bridge onto the roadway on corner entry showed a marked improvement in chassis control without any affect on ride harshness and elimination of the suspension spring noise.

The downhill run had the GTI sitting flat, working its upgraded rear anti-roll bar with XDS in conjunction that momentary and barely perceptible dab of the inner front brake, ensuring you meet your side apex mark time-in/time-out. This made the GTI easier to drive when leaning on the chassis – and that limit does feel higher than that of the Golf R – blame it on the lower speed corners and less heft.

Just when I was about to consider handing in the GTI in exchange for a six-month wait on a Golf R – the GTI with DCC in ‘Sport’ mode has proven that it was actually easier to drive the GTI when pressing on – thank the lord for XDS. The ease of driving comes at a cost – driver involvement with XDS stepping in to take control. The Golf R in contrast, was harder work due to the extra weight and no-XDS – the better balance chassis front to rear failed to impress in the lower speed tight twisting drives.

The GTI with DCC in ‘Sport’ mode was the best drive of the day.


So how do they rate on this short review drive?

1. GTI – DCC Sport mode.
2. Golf R – DCC Sport mode.
3. GTI – DCC Normal mode.



For non-DCC Golf R and Golf GTI – my pick would be:

1. Golf R
2. Golf GTI


What about Neighbour Ray and his purchase decision?

We’ll have to keep you posted on that one ... time will tell.



Weather Condition:

Clear dry 22 degree day with dry bitumen roadway.

Cheers
WJ

[WhiteJames]

Some more pics in WJ Suspension Thread:

http://golfmkv.com/forums/showthread...100863&page=14

Cheers
WJ

[hooba]

Brilliant write up, much appreciated.

[Corey_R]

Although there are performance differences between 2WD, RWD, AWD, 4WD etc, we could argue till we're red in the face about the merrits of each and the practicality of each when used within legal limits etc...

AWD and 4WD are the same thing

However, I think there are BIG reasons to look at the AWD version that is not performance related that hasn't really been spoken about, and that is SAFETY!

As the others have already said, this is a BIG misconception.

If the tyres and everything else are equal, a 2WD car will stop quicker as it has less weight. If no acceleration is applied, the 2WD car will turn at a higher speed, again, weight. Someone mentioned that AWD will likely stop the rear coming out, and maybe in the days before ESP and EBD and ABS and all those other TLA's this may have been true if the chassis is not well balanced in a 2WD configuration, but not today.

The only situation AWD really helps is accelerating when the grip level that two wheels can hold on to is exceeded. This means acceleration from a stand still or low speeds, and out of corners (to a certain extent).

On a dry racetrack, the RWD versions of cars available in both AWD and RWD are always quicker. Porsches, Lambos at the Nurburgring etc. This is why the "ultimate versions" of cars are often RWD, even if it makes them absolutely terrifying for the "average" driver to deal with.

Which is a reason why AWD has garnered this "safer" misconception. It makes the car feel more planted, but unless you have ridiculous amounts of power, or you're driving irresponsively, that really doesn't come through in reality. Anyone who was able to do a VW drive day and get out on the skid pan can tell you that the FWD cars were no less capable through the slalom or on the evasive maneuver... apart from the obvious limitations in initial acceleration made even worse due to the water!

But once your going, everything is different. Even in the Motor Hot Tuner Challenge, the Golf R was only 1.6 seconds quicker than the GTI around a VERY wet Eastern Creek. Although not exactly the same power levels, the Golf R had 230kw and the GTI had 217kw at the wheels, the upgrades and setup were done by Harding Performance in QLD. Most AWD proponents would be shocked by those figures, but really, AWD is _not_ what it's cracked up to be.


And yes... I'm buying an R. AWD will get me off the line quicker at the traffic lights... so sue me

[G-rig]

Brilliant write up, much appreciated.

+1 great read.