Golf R -v- Golf GTI

[G-rig]

The review did say that the R was not necessarily more "fun" to drive than the GTI.

The R would be more fun if you were doing quite high speeds, but if you are you should probably be on a track .

[Guy_H]

comment on WJ's comments:

Sorry mate, in this case, you are totally wrong about the setup & handling on the R & GTI for the tuner shootout.

One GIANT factor you did not put into your equation was tyre choice & pressure.

Both the GTI & R in the standing water had large understeer problems, and lift off oversteer is difficult in both cars because of the amount of rear end grip generated by out Superlap tyres.

In our initial (and only) pre event testing at Lakeside with the new rubber, we had difficulty getting the rear to "turn" with lift off due to the mechanical grip available. This made the understeer actually "worse" and on the GTI, this is further complicated by our front differential settings. We had this on a "soft" setting, which is great for street & track, but killed us in the Motorkhana in the magazine test.

The H&R bars on the Golf R are way too soft for the track, and this is why the R is not a lot quicker than the GTI - It should be seconds & seconds faster.

Take it from me, I have done over 120 combined track laps in both cars at Morgan Park, QR & Lakeside.

The GTI shines with its lighter weight, the motorsport differential gets it out of corners so well, its almost AWD fast (in the dry).

Simply at the Eastern Creek event with standing water, there was no lift off oversteer intentionally induced on either car - if you watch the other footage of the other vehicles, its a combination of aquaplaning & all wheel drifting.

I think the top end speed differential is also a lot to do with the gearing (as well as the weight difference)- here is a question for you:

GTI & R at lakeside (fastest average speed track in Australia), same day, same driver, same terminal main straight speed (212kmph)

Which car was in 4th gear & which was in fifth?

[WhiteJames]

Certainly agree with you on all the factors mentioned above in terms adjustments affecting chassis tune, esp. maxium attack settings for the dry weather on semi-slick tyres.

I can only comment on what I see in the two YouTube videos at Eastern Creek. Here's the video of the Lotus:

YouTube - Lotus Elise SC Hot Tuner 2010 Paul Morris Eastern Creek Lap

Where do you see the Lotus fall into lift off oversteer on approach to apex? You don't. At no time does the driver have to make opposite lock correctlive steering adjustments on power 'off' or trailing throttle when entering any corner at EC. It can clearly been seen from the driver's steering and throttle inputs and body language in the Lotus - The Lotus only oversteers only on power down, which is understandable given its turbo 4 cyl 500hp motor. Very sledom does this very light Lotus aquaplane and it's easy to drive, flowing from corner to corner with slight to moderate understeer on corner entry - look at the angle of the steering wheel when driving into and out of corners.

In contrast:

Look at the body language of the GTI on corner entry when Morris is 'off' the throttle on corner entry - the rear end nervously kicks out with the driver having to apply opposite lock to correct the slide in the rear end. When 'on' the power, the GTI is not oversteering or aquaplaning in the video. The GTI appeared to be very nervous in rear end with a lot of lift over steer generated only on corner entry - The Golf R had similar characteristics, but not the same degree as the GTI. The GTI is lighter in the rear end and has plenty of rear sway bar spring rate excerbating the lift off oversteer imo - aside from all the other factors mentioned. The GTI is heavier than the Lotus that did not exhibit any aquaplaning in the YouTube video imo. The Golf R did not power oversteer when on the power out of corners as in the case of the GTI. They both slide into oversteer on almost every corner entry in the videos.

If both Golf R and GTI run same tyres, same coilovers, same adjustments to tyre pressure, same suspension bushes - then it must be the sway bars making most of the difference - or course: lighter rear end of the GTI excepted when turning into the corner.

Cheers.
WJ

[MACCAA]

Certainly agree with you on all the factors mentioned above in terms adjustments affecting chassis tune, esp. maxium attack settings for the dry weather on semi-slick tyres.

I can only comment on what I see in the two YouTube videos at Eastern Creek. Here's the video of the Lotus:

YouTube - Lotus Elise SC Hot Tuner 2010 Paul Morris Eastern Creek Lap

Where do you see the Lotus fall into lift off oversteer on approach to apex? You don't. At no time does the driver have to make opposite lock correctlive steering adjustments on power 'off' or trailing throttle when entering any corner at EC. It can clearly been seen from the driver's steering and throttle inputs and body language in the Lotus - The Lotus only oversteers only on power down, which is understandable given its turbo 4 cyl 500hp motor. Very sledom does this very light Lotus aquaplane and it's easy to drive, flowing from corner to corner with slight to moderate understeer on corner entry - look at the angle of the steering wheel when driving into and out of corners.

In contrast:

Look at the body language of the GTI on corner entry when Morris is 'off' the throttle on corner entry - the rear end nervously kicks out with the driver having to apply opposite lock to correct the slide in the rear end. When 'on' the power, the GTI is not oversteering or aquaplaning in the video. The GTI appeared to be very nervous in rear end with a lot of lift over steer generated only on corner entry - The Golf R had similar characteristics, but not the same degree as the GTI. The GTI is lighter in the rear end and has plenty of rear sway bar spring rate excerbating the lift off oversteer imo - aside from all the other factors mentioned. The GTI is heavier than the Lotus that did not exhibit any aquaplaning in the YouTube video imo. The Golf R did not power oversteer when on the power out of corners as in the case of the GTI. They both slide into oversteer on almost every corner entry in the videos.

If both Golf R and GTI run same tyres, same coilovers, same adjustments to tyre pressure, same suspension bushes - then it must be the sway bars making most of the difference - or course: lighter rear end of the GTI excepted when turning into the corner.

Cheers.
WJ

If the Lotus is so good,why was it shedload slower than the Golfs?????
And if it handled so much better,and was easier to drive,why did Paul spin it?
You can have all the same settings on both Golfs,but I don't know if you've noticed,but one is two wheel drive with a LSD,the other is 4wd Haldex.
Kinda makes them a bit different....

[Guy_H]

WJ, I appreciate you trying to draw conclusions from internal camera footage on youtube, but if it was that easy, then there would be thousands of chassis engineers out of business around the world.

If you had of attended the event in person & witnessed Mustangs, Camaro's, C63's & 600 HP commodores & Falcons having massive understeer, you might have a little more understanding.

Sway bars probably had the least effect in overall suspension setup for the event. Personally (as mentioned above) tyre choice & pressure was #1, I think you would have seen the exact same track footage if we disconnected the swaybars on each end.

Simply put, standing water & aqua planing are the two factors you continue to forget, the video might not show them clearly enough for you - that was the number one problem.

End of the day, the Golf R & GTI finished pretty similar in times to what we have seen in the dry, both are totally neutral in cornering (when set for tyre type & track type) = both are very easy to drive close to their limit with the underlying ESP turned on.

Once again, put on second rate tyres, and have radical suspension & wheel alignment settings, it all changes again.

P.S. I think you will find in the next magazine that the 2 x Golf's may have been faster than the superb Lotus that you comment on.

you will be able to compare lap times when the next magazine comes out!

[ethosguy]

Guy,
ESP has been criticised for 'track' use because it overrides driver intended car slide/trim/attitude, call it what you will.
Did ESP influence lap times; if so, how?

Was ESP functioning in your cars?
What are the prospects of tuneable or a true 'off' setting for ESP either through you or other developers?
Can you pull the plug on ESP beyond the switch? Does it run on its' own electronics ccrt or are a number of systems co-powered? If so what are they? Does software have a diagnostic to detect disabled ESP and override freedoms?

Did you have any Haldex modifications on the R; I haven't noticed any discussion WRT Haldex tuning.

Pete Shelley has described his Stage 3 S3 in very 'tyre smoking type colourful' terms - I didn't ask him at the time about how ESP allows such antics.

On a dry surface, more significantly, would the increased rear bias offered by a Haldex controller improve power down or other drive characteristics, eg mid corner understeer? Or are you managing chassis balance through wheel alignment/suspension setting?

It seems the extremely wet conditions of the day really undermined the value of the Hot Tuner shootout? Pity logistics of such a big event are what they are.

[Corey_R]

In the table on the shoutout writeup, you will notice that the "Diff" is mentioned twice for the R. The cost is $1950, which is the price of the Gen IV Haldex controller. So I've assumed all along that the car has it installed.

[Mr_Bob]

Whilst i'm not a fan of ESP, (i think a well placed right foot will result in better times)
I can't help but think about the performance gains of the XDL setup.
Braking the inside wheel in a corner is not something that a driver could replicate,
Assuming VW have done it properly, surely it would bebeneficial to lap times if this component was left active?

[Guy_H]

Hey Ethosguy - have to excuse me, I'm on my first weeks holiday in along time, so have to reply in between fishing trips!

Anyway, yes, the ESP can be manipulated at different levels, the MK6 has two levels, the second is the one that contains the XDL differential which can not be "switched off" & draws criticism from drivers & journalists on the track.

In this challenge it was a tough call what to do because of the weather, anyway, we decided to leave it "factory" and Paul thought he could have shaved a further 4 - 5 seconds off the time. Anyway, there was no opportunity to test different settings on cars, one setting had to do the event.

Unfortunately the legal implications of manipulating the ESP is an issue for cars driven on the street is an issue that cant be sorted at the moment.

[ethosguy]

Hey Ethosguy - have to excuse me, I'm on my first weeks holiday in along time, so have to reply in between fishing trips!

Anyway, yes, the ESP can be manipulated at different levels, the MK6 has two levels, the second is the one that contains the XDL differential which can not be "switched off" & draws criticism from drivers & journalists on the track.

In this challenge it was a tough call what to do because of the weather, anyway, we decided to leave it "factory" and Paul thought he could have shaved a further 4 - 5 seconds off the time. Anyway, there was no opportunity to test different settings on cars, one setting had to do the event.

Unfortunately the legal implications of manipulating the ESP is an issue for cars driven on the street is an issue that cant be sorted at the moment.

B.u.g.g.e.r! Oh, wrong forum...
There might be something between the lines there?
Sounds like you should leave the net at work. Have a good holiday.