Reply With QuoteI had Xenons on my Mini, and while I did like them, I haven't missed them on the GTI.Originally Posted by coreying
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Yeah, this is a good strategy. I live in suburbia and had the Xenon on my MKV GTI. They were amazing. Having to go back to "standard lights" in my Polo GTI was a BIG adjustment. I wouldn't purchases a non-Xenon car by choice anymore.
Volkswagen Fan
I had Xenons on my Mini, and while I did like them, I haven't missed them on the GTI.
tornado red GTI MkVI, 5dr, DSG, Sat Nav, RVC, MDI.
Red Honda Fireblade Red Cooper S (SOLD)
Volkswagen Enthusiast
I have to agree, i'm on to my second borrowed bunky without xenon's since selling the rex and i am often checking to see if i've actually switched the headlights on at night due to the standard lights being so bad.
MY11 Golf R - Rising Blue - 5DR - DSG - 19" Black OZ Ultralegerra - Leather - Sunroof - MDI - Euro Plates - Milltek Exhaust - Bluefin - SOLD
MY11 Tiguan 147 TSI - DSG - Pepper Grey - Black Leather - RVC - MDI - BT
Volkswagen Enthusiast
In respect to the differences in the handling of the Golf R –v- Golf GTI:
The Mark 6 GTI, although a lighter vehicle than the Golf R, has a greater proportion of its front to rear balance weighted towards the front – like a lead tipped arrow. This does affect handling to a degree – more to the point the lift off oversteer. It makes for harder work on the driver’s part, but sometimes that half the fun.
Viewing the videos of the APR tuned Golf R and APR tuned Golf GTI on 2 wet laps that comprising part of the MOTOR Magazine September 2010 ‘Castrol Hot Tuner’ Edition:
YouTube - APR Stage 3 Golf GTI MK6 Motor Magazine Hot Tuner Challenge 2010 -
YouTube - APR Stage 3 Golf R Motor Magazine Hot Tuner Challenge 2010 -
The difference between the APR tuned Golf R and APR tuned Golf GTI in the MOTOR Mag EC video is much more stark in my opinion. Reason being:
The main point of difference is that the Golf R runs H&R sway bars and the Golf R APR (aka Hotchkis) sway bars. The H&R sway bars have 2 hole adjustability and the APR bars 3 hole adjustability. The APR sway bars have a greater range of adjustability than the H&R bars by virtue of APR’s 3 hole settings. The rear of the APR sway bar can be set firmer than the H&R rear sway bar (GTI or Golf R/R32).
The video depicts both the APR tuned Golf R and Golf GTI running to much rear bar for the Eastern Creek track in the wet conditions. The lift off oversteer on trailing brake is evident in both vehicles – with the GTI suffering much worse from lift off oversteer than the Golf R. This cost both Golf R and Golf GTI time in the wet conditions. Way too much spring rate in the rear end of both vehicles.
I’ll take a punt and express an opinion that the GTI was tuned with the rear APR on full hard (3/3) with the front bar on medium setting (2/3) – this makes the GTI way too stiff in rear end in terms of sway bar spring rate relative to the Golf R.
Alternatively; The Golf R appears to have its H&R sway bars set on front soft (1/2) and rear hard (2/2), also creating lift off oversteer on approach to apex, but no where near the degree of the APR sway bar set up in the Golf GTI. The H&R sway bars a more of a Nurburgring fast flowing type of sway bar. The APR sway bars cover the whole gambit of super tight Auto-X to faster flowing depending on sway bar settings front and rear.
In the past, I have sampled a GTI and R32 with same set of KW coilovers and H&R sway bars – the R32 had better balance front to rear, but the difference was not stark as shown in the YouTube videos for Golf R and Golf GTI – both GTI and R32 handled in a very similar way, with point of difference being that the GTI turned in better but had a greater tendency to lift off oversteer – but nothing like what I see in the YouTube videos.
I have also compared two Mark 5 GTI’s with same KW coilovers – one with H&R bars (my old MKV) and another with the Hotichkis (APR) sway bars (27mm/27mm hollow from memory) with APR front set on medium and rear on hard. The APR rear sway bar set on full hard was too stiff for public roadways imo – okay for hill climbs or auto-X where speeds are generally low and plenty of rear wheel slip is required, but too stiff at lower speeds of the public roadways.
Had the Golf GTI by APR in the MOTOR Mag test run H&R sway bars front and rear or alternatively; had the APR sway bars set on full soft, I reckon the times of the APR GTI would be closer again to the Golf R, the GTI would be less prone to oversteer on corner entry.
The APR Golf GTI and APR Golf GTI clocked impressive times regardless of there stiff dry track tune; if the sway bars for both GTI and Golf R were set on full soft for the wet conditions, times would further improve imo.
Looks like the Rennenhaus genuine Volkswagen Racing coilovers are just rebadged KW coilovers. The Peak Performance Audi S3 also ran H&R sway bars as per APR Golf R – but Bilstein PSS10 progressive rate springs most likely let it down in the corner speed on the track – the JIC-Cross appears to be a linear rate spring, which is what you’d want for the track, with the Volkswagen Racing (KW) coilovers somewhere in between.
Cheers
WJ
Last edited by WhiteJames; 11-09-2010 at 09:50 PM.
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Dude - there was only 1.6 seconds between the Golf R and Golf GTI in the Motor Tuner Challenge. The Golf R beat EVERYTHING, including Porsche GT3s and Lotuses etc. The fact that on an obviously extremely wet track the GTI with its FWD managed to get within 1.6 seconds is absolutely awesome.
I know you own the GTI and like to justify your purchase of it, but seroiusly...
Volkswagenist
It was an interesting read mainly about the affects of different sway bar settings.. Just like having your car fully slammed doesn't equal better handling.
The times are pretty close all things considered and on a wet track.
Last edited by G-rig; 12-09-2010 at 09:50 AM.
Volkswagen Enthusiast
Looking at the MOTOR Magazine ‘Castrol Hot Tuner’ stats between the Golf R and Golf GTI confirms that I made the correct decision in sticking with the GTI. 400m V-Max and Eastern Creek V-Max has the GTI ahead of the Golf R. In other words, the GTI starts off slower from standstill or corner exit and trounces the Golf R down the straight for a higher end top speed. The big plus being the new tech EA888 motor in the GTI in either stock tune or right way up to full house stage III tune. Hell … the driver at the end of the Golf GTI YouTube video says without EDL/XDS interference, there could be another 4-5 secs to shave off the GTI’s lap time. Crikey!
The point I was making in the former post was that the Golf R tuned with the H&R sway bars was a better set-up for Eastern Creek Raceway in the wet conditions. Same applied to the rear wheel drive BMW 135i Evolve also fitted with H&R sway bars, which also posted a fabulous lap time and only 0.4 sec slower than the AWD Golf R. The APR (aka Hotchkis) sway bars set on maximum attack on the Golf GTI compromised it more so than the Golf R or BMW running H&R sway bars. Both GTI and Golf R were running the same brand of coilover suspension.
The lift off oversteer tendencies depicted in the Golf R YouTube video could sometimes occur on my old MKV Golf GTI fitted with KW V3 coilovers and small size H&R bars set up for neutral handling chassis tune (front soft/rear hard) – this state of tune could be unnerving when lift-off oversteer occurred unexpectedly on approach to the apex with some trail braking – esp. on downhill corners on public roadways. This was not so much a problem with the softer Eibach ProKit Strut Springs & Koni FSD that would lean heavily on it outside front tyre due to less spring rate of the Strut Eibach Spring. In the end, I opted to pull out the KW V3 and fit HPA Motor Sport KW SHS coilovers to re-introduce some added fun and most importantly - compliance – as it was a daily street driven MKV GTI and required additional time from grip to slip in adverse weather conditions or on rougher roadways.
Maximum spring rate, in either springs or sway bar rate, is not always a good thing when considering varied roadways and weather conditions – the YouTube video clearly shows this to be the case with both Golf R and Golf GTI. Other makes of vehicles also suffered from too firm sway bars – Subaru Liberty GT with street tyres and one of the Falcons with firm rear sway bars that caused it to lose compliance and slip into over steer too soon. Not necessary a good thing to have on a wet bumpy back public roadway imo.
The YouTube videos are great in that they show what I’ve been describing in past WJ Suspension Reviews in terms of lift off oversteer. Suspension tuning is an art in itself. I think Paul Morris did a reasonable job given the chassis set up of the two Golf’s and wet conditions - as he’s trying to drive around the idiosyncrasies of a dry track setup. The owner of the Audi S3 by Peak Performance also indicates that Luff had issues with lift off oversteer – the Audi S3 also ran H&R sway bars set for a neutral chassis tune (soft front/rear hard).
Cheers
WJ
Last edited by WhiteJames; 12-09-2010 at 01:39 PM.
Volkswagen Enthusiast
Seems like a few people in similar boat! We have a APR stg 1 MkV GTI and about (90% sure) to replace my Polo GTI with a Golf R. I think everyone seems to notice the same things about the R. More lag, better handling etc
I think the only doubt i have in my mind about the R is the fact that suspension is so much stiffer, dont get me wrong, its awesome. Feels tight as a drum but those bumps are pretty harsh. Exhaust sound is a lot nicer than the MkV GTI.
What to do?!!
1986 MkII Golf GTI 16V (Sold), 2005 MkV Golf GTI (Sold), 2007 Polo GTI (Sold), 2011 Polo 66TDI (Selling), 2012 Passat 125 TDI Bluemotion, 2013 Scirocco R (Due October!)
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There was a review of the R in last Friday's SMH Drive. Apparently the rear boot space is 75l less due to the AWD. That's enough of a drawback for me!
The review did say that the R was not necessarily more "fun" to drive than the GTI.
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I wouldn't be concerned about the Golf R's suspension coming from the Polo GTI, especially if you option the ACC.
Although both cars have firm suspension, the Polo GTI is very unforgiving of speed humps etc (even at 15kph), whereas the R is much more absorbing. Your $30k difference does go to good use
Yeah, same with the R32, and the S3.
You also have a slightly larger fuel tank as well as the AWD...
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