Golf R -v- Golf GTI

[dave_r]

This discussion about sports cars is getting too long in the tooth. If you want to know what real driving is about, invest $5-7K on a new Go-kart and take it to the track.

Damn true, driving the R around the track was great fun but it was a walk in the park compared to a kart. I'd get out of the kart battered and bruised, knuckles white and totally drained. The comment from Ideo probably sums that up...
GTI or R they are still a Golf and not the last word on chuckability and immense handling prowess.

I've also seen some vehemence that a F458 Italia isn't a hypercar!

If someone gave me the keys to one and a skidpan, I'd be happy to try writing "is a hypercar" in rubber

Bit off topic but you've driven the DC2R and you think it's "asthmatic"? To this day I still think the DC2R is one of the best FWD cars out there and it would take something huge to knock it from that pedestal.

It's that good old personal prefernce and opinion again. The DC2R was a good car and probably made a lot of sense on a race track but as a road car it was just annoying personally. Which is why I bought the S15 at the time. It wasn't anywhere near as hard edged but as a road car it was a much better compromise. And that is what this thread is really about. If people had the cash to keep a dedicated weekend racer, it wouldn't be Golf sorry to say.

[Corey_R]

Yes, seriously.
I will line my current sports car up against a Ferrari FF on a racetrack or twisty bit of tarmac and beat it. I just won't be able to carry as many groceries while doing it.

Next you'll try and tell me a Porsche Cayenne or Panamerica are sports cars.

BTW, my current sports car is a Honda-powered Lotus Elise. Brilliant chassis and handling mated to a brlliant naturally aspirated engine. It doesn't need power steering, power brakes, traction control, stability control, anti-lock brakes or all-wheel drive. It does have a nice LSD, close ratio gearbox and epic brakes with with fine-ness of control that can't be achieved with a booster. It is fun to drive at 60km/h and, with the possible exception of something like a clubman, nothing comes close to the involvement and satisfaction on a nice twisty road.

Sorry... been busy. You should first concentrate on beating our "tuned non-sports car" Golf's first mate... something no Lotus Elise has done thus far in a MOTOR Tuner challenge... maybe one of these years, hehe. (yeah so ok... the Lotus might just suck in the rain or something).

[Ideo]

Sorry... been busy. You should first concentrate on beating our "tuned non-sports car" Golf's first mate... something no Lotus Elise has done thus far in a MOTOR Tuner challenge... maybe one of these years, hehe. (yeah so ok... the Lotus might just suck in the rain or something).

There is more to life than winning a competition in some second rate motoring rag.

I've only had a short blast in a Elise (Toyota engine rather than rover K series) and it was immense. It was on the evo test triangle in north wales and it was by far the best driving experience I have ever had.

A Golf is a good car. But for that kind of driving, let alone track work, it is not even on the same page as an Elise. Completly different cars for very different purposes. The R is a compact GT/luxury hot hatch. The Elise is a sports car.

This kind of zomg the golf beats all on the track it is an immense performance car nonsense is what gives single make forums a bad name.

[Corey_R]

Regardless... The Golf GTI and R still showed it up...

I've no doubt the Else and Exige are awesome sports cars. But the "superiority complex" some people are displaying in this thread is amusing. It's like the Integra Type R that was mentioned a few pages ago. Back in the the late 90's when the "only real" Integra Type R came to Australia, it annihilated the WRX and practically everything else, rivaling the Porsches of the day around Philip Island. But oh no, it's not a "real sports car" because it's FWD, and is too practical and whatever.
Oh but the shopping trolley Imprezza is ok cause it has AWD? Puleeeze!

Don't get me wrong. Though I've never had the pleasure of driving an Elise or Exige on the track, I'd own one any time if I could afford to maintain two cars. But yeah... it doesn't mean the Golf GTI or R can't be configured to rival them in track performance at least.

(Though, I'm sure the Lotus would still be way more fun).

[Ideo]

That's the problem with numbers. They don't measure variables such as driver involvement.

And, to be honest, for most situations, I'm not running against a stopwatch, I'm driving for it's own sake. And I want enjoyment with that, not just raw numbers.

For me the GTI and R are a compromise - a damn good compromise, but a compromise none the less. Which suits me fine as that is what I wanted. But they are not the last word in track weapons, performance cars or drivers enjoyment.

• ETA – I very nearly didn’t buy an R and instead looked at a second hand Elise and a second car (early Saab 9-5, Passat kind of thing) but as you say, maintenance, insurance, rego and lack of parking space put me off.

[Corey_R]

That's the problem with numbers. They don't measure variables such as driver involvement.

That I can totally agree with.

For me the GTI and R are a compromise - a damn good compromise, but a compromise none the less. Which suits me fine as that is what I wanted. But they are not the last word in track weapons, performance cars or drivers enjoyment.

lol yes... but at the same time, the Lotus Elise is one of the most compromising cars on sale! They are very small, no luggage space, range from "not particularly ergonomic" to "plain uncomfortable" (depending on the person), was never originally designed to have carpet, aircon or a stereo, and we're those things have been added, the aircon and stereo are an obvious afterthought etc, the list goes on.

Where they don't compromise on though is their handling. So yeah... the Golf compromises outright handling for practicality and every day livibility (sp?). The Lotus compromises almost everything for handling.... but that's why they're cool, if that's what you're primary focus is

Just don't let it rain

• ETA – I very nearly didn’t buy an R and instead looked at a second hand Elise and a second car (early Saab 9-5, Passat kind of thing) but as you say, maintenance, insurance, rego and lack of parking space put me off.

ETA too.... Yeah - if I could have two cars, I wouldn't have purchased a GTI or R either.

[DoggieHowser]

That's the problem with numbers. They don't measure variables such as driver involvement.

And, to be honest, for most situations, I'm not running against a stopwatch, I'm driving for it's own sake. And I want enjoyment with that, not just raw numbers.

For me the GTI and R are a compromise - a damn good compromise, but a compromise none the less. Which suits me fine as that is what I wanted. But they are not the last word in track weapons, performance cars or drivers enjoyment.

• ETA – I very nearly didn’t buy an R and instead looked at a second hand Elise and a second car (early Saab 9-5, Passat kind of thing) but as you say, maintenance, insurance, rego and lack of parking space put me off.

My days of crazy track tweaked Evos are over

But I'd still like a bit of fun when I get in the car and the R seems like a great dual purpose car. I still get Dynaudios and Comfort mode ACC settings but the power on tap, the AWD and the Sport mode suspension when I get a great stretch of road

We might still have two cars but one's for the missus. I'm still clinging on to the Elise 2015 if the CFO (ahem shewhomustbeobeyed) approves

[Banzai]

[QUOTE=Corey_R;680818]
lol yes... but at the same time, the Lotus Elise is one of the most compromising cars on sale!
I think you meant uncompromising.

They are very small,
By modern standards but I've owned smaller

no luggage space
That is wrong. The opening for the boot is small but an Elise has more boot space than any other 4-Cylinder convertible I can think of. The area of the boot floor is not much smaller than the Golf but it is only about 40cm deep. In 5 and a half years as a daily driver I never had an issue with luggage space and I did some pretty long trips.

range from "not particularly ergonomic" to "plain uncomfortable" (depending on the person),
If, by unergonomic, you mean you have to stretch a couple of inches to adjust the stereo or reach the door latches, then yes. If you are unusually tall or short then yes again but most people between 1.5 and 2.2 metres tall are fine. For me the seating position is the 2nd best in a car I've ever owned. A Honda S800 was slightly better but the Elise has better pedal spacing. IMHO the standard Elise seats are much more comfortable than the GTI. After taking the Golf to Broken Hill last year I felt like burning it on the way home and regretted not taking the Elise because the Lotus has better designed seats.

was never originally designed to have carpet, aircon or a stereo,
Or a roof

and we're those things have been added, the aircon and stereo are an obvious afterthought etc,
Maybe in the very early cars but these things are very well integrated in the Toyota-Powered Elises. Certainly no harder to use than the Golf or do you mean there aren't controls on the steering wheel? As for me, I removed my A/C and as often as not just listen to the addictive sound of the engine.

the list goes on.
Lotus tells you not to use snow chains (studded tyres are okay)
You can't really drive under semi-trailers. But boom gates are fine.

Where they don't compromise on though is their handling.
You would be surprised how much you can improve the already excellent handling of an Elise but a standard car has very compliant suspension for regular users.

So yeah... the Golf compromises outright handling for practicality and every day livibility (sp?). The Lotus compromises almost everything for handling.... but that's why they're cool, if that's what you're primary focus is

Just don't let it rain
I have no problems in the rain and I run semi-slicks full time. I just don't drive like an idiot.

ETA too.... Yeah - if I could have two cars, I wouldn't have purchased a GTI or R either.
The GTI is my second car. The RS250 Megane wasn't available and no-one in Australia sells a decent rear wheel drive car at a similar price point. The nearest would be a 370Z. I've hated every BMW I've ever driven (and I really want to like them) so a 1 series doesn't even make the list However I lust after an M coupe despite having never driven one.
BMW Z3 M Coupe

[Corey_R]

Nope, I meant compromising! They've compromised most other things for handling... and from your post, you state in your opinion the handling can be improved too! So seems the compromised on everything

EOS = 4 cylinder convertible with lots more boot space

Ergonomics vary from people to people. I'm glad you find it fine, but there are endless amounts of car reviewers and Elise/Exige owners who have commented on its lack of ergonomics... but as it's a personal thing, it's different for each person. The Stereo still seems tacked on to me, and Jason Plato mused that he can't even see the aircon settings from his driving position and had to stop and lean over to see it, lol

As for the rain comment. It was in reference to last years Hot Tuner challenge at Eastern Creek when both the Golf R and GTI slaughtered the modified Elise around Eastern Creek at the hands of Warren Luff and Paul Morris. Whilst I'm not a fan of PM (who drove the Golfs... can't remember who piloted the Elise), I'm sure he could run rings around most of us non-racers



The BMW M Coupe though! One of my favourite all time cars! Reminds me of the 60's "breadvan" or "shooting brake" conversions that some coachbuilders did on the old Ferrari 250's and Alfas etc. It'd be fantastic to have one of them! I truly wished that there was a modern RWD performance hatchback... you know, something a bit cheaper than that Ferrari FF

[Ideo]

An Eos, like a 307 convertible or any of those other things, is a molested hatchback. Like the unloveable Barina Convertible of the mid 90s.

I get the feeling he was talking about proper convertibles, like the MX5, S2000, 370z, Boxster. Things like that.

For the record I found the Elise very comfortable. But if you complain about having to slightly stretch to turn up the radio it is probably the wrong car for you.