Golf R -v- Golf GTI

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Originally Posted by Banzai

IMHO, if it has more than 2 seats it isn't a real sports car.
It might be a GT, a Sporting Sedan or Coupe, Hot Hatch etc.

Driving a sports car as its maker intended is a selfish past time that is uncomfortable for, and hampered by the presence of passengers. Navigators are acceptable.

Sports cars may not be as fast as some of the Sedans, Coupes and GTs that now abound but they should be lighter, more responsive and a lot more involving to drive. Proper sports cars have no pretensions about being a fast shopping trolley, baby carrier or off-roader. They should have excellent chassis and suspensions. They don't need to be technological showcases but they should have a carefully matched assembly of appropriate technologies.

BTW, 2-door cars tend to be stronger and lighter than 4-door equivalents. Better structural rigidity as the chassis/shell is less compromised by openings, lighter because it doesn't need as much door paraphernalia or chassis reinforcement.

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Well, it sounds like you're talking about my car (with the back seat removed) :D
I totally agree with you, driving a sports car is selfish past time. My wife absolutely hates it! However, driving in the hills on a cold Sunday morning more makes up for her bitching about paying so much for a road registered go-kart that does such a lousy job at being a hatch that she can't drive because its suspension is so damn hard and the engine too brutal and don't even get her started about the Brembos... Women, what do they know?

For me, the more chuckable a car the better. The GTI and the Roc R seem to be better at that than the Golf R, that's why I'm on GTI's side. It is impossible to hide chassis deficiencies and comfort driven suspensions compromises behind AWD traction, no matter how good that is. Also, look at lateral acceleration figures, a few other hot hatches beat the R comprehensively at that despite being FWD. More lateral G means they carry more speed in corners. Where's the traction advantage of AWD then?!
A good sports car starts, as you well said, with excellent chassis and suspensions. While the R is very good, it is ultimately built to be an all-rounder rather than a racer. Having said that, it is the Golf to buy if you live in the outback and drive a lot on unsealed roads :)

Now let me put that asbestos suite on...

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Originally Posted by sabloke

Now let me put that asbestos suite on...

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Or move the patch to the other eye

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Originally Posted by sabloke

For me, the more chuckable a car the better. The GTI and the Roc R seem to be better at that than the Golf R, that's why I'm on GTI's side. It is impossible to hide chassis deficiencies and comfort driven suspensions compromises behind AWD traction, no matter how good that is. Also, look at lateral acceleration figures, a few other hot hatches beat the R comprehensively at that despite being FWD. More lateral G means they carry more speed in corners. Where's the traction advantage of AWD then?!
A good sports car starts, as you well said, with excellent chassis and suspensions. While the R is very good, it is ultimately built to be an all-rounder rather than a racer. Having said that, it is the Golf to buy if you live in the outback and drive a lot on unsealed roads :)

Now let me put that asbestos suite on...

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I own a GTI but I have to disagree your assertion that the R isn't as chuckable as the GTI (I cannot comment on the Rocco as I have only driven the 1.4TSI version and not in a performance orientated manner).

I find the R to be as nimble as the GTI. When I first test drove the R, it felt just like my Pirelli but with better brakes and more power.

This discussion about sports cars is getting too long in the tooth. If you want to know what real driving is about, invest $5-7K on a new Go-kart and take it to the track. Go-karting separates the men from the boys wrt to driving skills. Driving our Golfs (even round the track) doesn't even come close to the thrills you get from karting - it is like F1 miniaturised. That is why I will be getting a kart when finances allow for it.

GTI or R they are still a Golf and not the last word on chuckability and immense handling prowess.

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Originally Posted by Banzai

IMHO, if it has more than 2 seats it isn't a real sports car.
It might be a GT, a Sporting Sedan or Coupe, Hot Hatch etc.

Driving a sports car as its maker intended is a selfish past time that is uncomfortable for, and hampered by the presence of passengers. Navigators are acceptable.

Sports cars may not be as fast as some of the Sedans, Coupes and GTs that now abound but they should be lighter, more responsive and a lot more involving to drive. Proper sports cars have no pretensions about being a fast shopping trolley, baby carrier or off-roader. They should have excellent chassis and suspensions. They don't need to be technological showcases but they should have a carefully matched assembly of appropriate technologies. Technology and driver aids should not buffer the driver from the road feel. The best ones are rear wheel drive but AWDs may be okay provided they are rear-wheel biased.

I've been driving 2-seater sports cars for over a quarter of a century and know what I like.

Re the argument a few posts up about getting power to the ground in a GTI vs R. Standard tyres on a GTI are pathetic and don't have enough grip to allow full acceleration of the line. With a stage 2 kit I get excessive wheelspin and worse, tramp, in 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Traction control is a poor way of limiting this problem. The car really does need grippier tyres, a better secured drivetrain, a proper diff and firmer springs. However I'm sure VW's customer research shows people want to ride around in their lounge chairs rather than something that handles well without electronic aids but has a bit more NVH.

Having said that, I wouldn't touch an R because it is AWD with front wheel bias and worse, it is no longer available in 2-door. I gave up rally driving when I moved into sports cars so I don't need to worry about thrashing cars on grave roads. RWD is still fun though. AWD might be quicker in some conditions but mostly it is just boring.

BTW, 2-door cars tend to be stronger and lighter than 4-door equivalents. Better structural rigidity as the chassis/shell is less compromised by openings, lighter because it doesn't need as much door paraphernalia or chassis reinforcement.

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370z classify as a sports car?

Coupe/Manual, obvs.

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Originally Posted by Banzai

IMHO, if it has more than 2 seats it isn't a real sports car.

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Seriously?
I'm sure the Ferrari FF is a better sports car than any car you've owned...
Despite it being a FOUR seat, having part time AWD (in a revolutionary system using an additional dual clutch transmission off the front of the crank which only adds 30kg to the total weight of the car), and being a hatch back :D

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Originally Posted by adzy

Sorry but thats the biggest load of BS I have ever heard! A sports car is a vehicle designed for high speed driving and maneuverability. Sports cars have been either spartan or luxurious, but good handling, minimum weight, and high performance are requisite. (wiki)

With cars like the Integra type R, Cooper S, R26R and Focus RS out there not to mention the success of the original mini's in motorsport back in the day.. your own personal opinion is well off.

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Well, that cracks me up..."biggest load of bs you have ever heard" huh?
I should have checked the almighty wiki before posting...and so I did!
You might need to say sorry again! That same wiki article goes on to say:

1. "The front-engine, rear-wheel drive layout (FR) is common to sports cars of any era and has survived longer in sports cars than in mainstream automobiles. Examples include the Caterham 7, Mazda MX-5".... I agree so far.

2. "The Front engine Front drive layout, however, is common in sport compacts and hot hatches, and cars in general (excepting sports cars)" ...see that bit?

3. "With its improvement in traction, particularly in adverse weather conditions, four-wheel drive is no longer uncommon in high-powered sports cars" ... ok, so AWDs are included in the sports car mould now...

4. This one youre gonna love!.."Performance modifications of regular, production cars, such as sport compacts, sports sedans, muscle cars, hot hatches and the like, generally are not considered sports cars, yet share traits common to sports cars. They are sometimes called "sports cars" for marketing purposes for increased advertising and promotional purposes"

So, your little white golf sits nicely in point 4. I'll understand if you want to drive around in your front wheel golf and pretend it's a sports car. Go for it and enjoy. Its not a bad car, just not a sports car.
No true sports car needs the purchaser to run to the nearest tuning house with their credit card.

I might also point out the the four cars you listed (Integra type R, Cooper S, R26R and Focus RS) also fit nicely in point 4 above. However, most are truely awful drives...The honda is asthmatic, and I had a cooper S (on loan) for four months. It was absolutely woeful and I couldnt bare the clownish interior.

Anyhoo...your selective quoting of wiki and your agressive tone has provided me with much laughter. thank you.

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Originally Posted by Corey_R

Seriously?
I'm sure the Ferrari FF is a better sports car than any car you've owned...
Despite it being a FOUR seat, having part time AWD (in a revolutionary system using an additional dual clutch transmission off the front of the crank which only adds 30kg to the total weight of the car), and being a hatch back :D

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Yes, seriously.
I will line my current sports car up against a Ferrari FF on a racetrack or twisty bit of tarmac and beat it. I just won't be able to carry as many groceries while doing it.

Next you'll try and tell me a Porsche Cayenne or Panamerica are sports cars.

BTW, my current sports car is a Honda-powered Lotus Elise. Brilliant chassis and handling mated to a brlliant naturally aspirated engine. It doesn't need power steering, power brakes, traction control, stability control, anti-lock brakes or all-wheel drive. It does have a nice LSD, close ratio gearbox and epic brakes with with fine-ness of control that can't be achieved with a booster. It is fun to drive at 60km/h and, with the possible exception of something like a clubman, nothing comes close to the involvement and satisfaction on a nice twisty road.

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Originally Posted by Whistler

Well, that cracks me up..."biggest load of bs you have ever heard" huh?
I should have checked the almighty wiki before posting...and so I did!
You might need to say sorry again! That same wiki article goes on to say:

1. "The front-engine, rear-wheel drive layout (FR) is common to sports cars of any era and has survived longer in sports cars than in mainstream automobiles. Examples include the Caterham 7, Mazda MX-5".... I agree so far.

2. "The Front engine Front drive layout, however, is common in sport compacts and hot hatches, and cars in general (excepting sports cars)" ...see that bit?

3. "With its improvement in traction, particularly in adverse weather conditions, four-wheel drive is no longer uncommon in high-powered sports cars" ... ok, so AWDs are included in the sports car mould now...

4. This one youre gonna love!.."Performance modifications of regular, production cars, such as sport compacts, sports sedans, muscle cars, hot hatches and the like, generally are not considered sports cars, yet share traits common to sports cars. They are sometimes called "sports cars" for marketing purposes for increased advertising and promotional purposes"

So, your little white golf sits nicely in point 4. I'll understand if you want to drive around in your front wheel golf and pretend it's a sports car. Go for it and enjoy. Its not a bad car, just not a sports car.
No true sports car needs the purchaser to run to the nearest tuning house with their credit card.

I might also point out the the four cars you listed (Integra type R, Cooper S, R26R and Focus RS) also fit nicely in point 4 above. However, most are truely awful drives...The honda is asthmatic, and I had a cooper S (on loan) for four months. It was absolutely woeful and I couldnt bare the clownish interior.

Anyhoo...your selective quoting of wiki and your agressive tone has provided me with much laughter. thank you.

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This has nothing to do with 'my little (silver) golf' champ as I am the first to admit that the current GTI and R are shopping carts with decent engines, over servoed brakes, bugger all steering feel and too much electronic intervention to be called a sports car.
Its all down to interpretation of each individual and I stand by my original comments, by the way there is more to a car than power.. the DC2 type R has been described as 'one of' the top drivers cars of all time. Steering feedback and adjustability of the chassis have more to do with it than straight line shove.
And I will say sorry again as you must be pretty sensitive to think that my post was aggresive.

Wow. This is almost as heated as some discussions I've seen which asks if the R35 GTR is a supercar.
:)

I've also seen some vehemence that a F458 Italia isn't a hypercar!