Golf R Observations and Questions

[Corey_R]

hooba, in manual mode, the DSG doesn't upshift until it's already in the redline... go have a look at the links in the DSG torque thread for more information...
If the DSG upshift wasn't there, a rev limiter would be there instead. That's what the DSG tune does. Removes the upshift, it just won't let you accelerate anymore. So its really a bit of a pointless conversation.

[REXman]

If the DSG upshift wasn't there, a rev limiter would be there instead. That's what the DSG tune does. Removes the upshift, it just won't let you accelerate anymore. So its really a bit of a pointless conversation.

Im not sure what is pointless here. Coreying stay in form mate. Its quite simple. This new feature, allows you to hold your car in gear, without it automatically upshifting, like an auto?. Which is something performance people and the like, would appreciate.

Calm down big fella.

[team_v]

Im not sure what is pointless here. Coreying stay in form mate. Its quite simple. This new feature, allows you to hold your car in gear, without it automatically upshifting, like an auto?. Which is something performance people and the like, would appreciate.

Calm down big fella.

I'm with Coreying here, and Guy as well.

There is nothing to appreciate though?
This has been covered by multiple people who own performance VW's and yet you still seem to believe holding the redline will allow greater performance when in fact it is detrimental to the top end performance.
With the DSG's claims of "tenth of a second gear changes" then it shouldn't matter if it changes up as it will keep you in the power range and you engine will stay in check.


How often are you likely to be holding gear on the redline anyway though?

[REXman]

Its good to pick sides. Its even better If you know why your picking them!

Holding redline.. the whole concept of holding gear without auto upshift of gears would NO DOUBT HELP PERFORMANCE. Obviously If you are going around a nice bend on a highway type track, then you can hold 6500rpm as you go around on the edge waiting to clear the apex and clear the corner (punch out of it).

I believe your comments are well intentioned, but Guy himself wrote in the other "toque 350nm" thread:

"Certainly a DSG modification that would allow you to hold a gear (not let the computer shift of its own accord) would be an excellent idea."

So who are you agreeing with?

Coreying's chip and air filter modding experience? LMAO sorry I like being a nice guy, but I pretty much got slammed for even suggesting this mod, by the Mod, when this infact would be a great mod to people who value performance.

Otherwise you might as well call this internet site "STOCK VEHICLES. COM.AU".

PS this is not some revelation that I came up with, or Guy has mentioned either.

This is fact that having a gearbox that can shift quicker than a manual (DSG), but still hold gear when you want it to (like a manual) will provide better performance on a track/corner and would be preferred by any descent driver, in these situations.

[pologti18t]

Holding redline.. the whole concept of holding gear without auto upshift of gears would NO DOUBT HELP PERFORMANCE. Obviously If you are going around a nice bend on a highway type track, then you can hold 6500rpm as you go around on the edge waiting to clear the apex and clear the corner (punch out of it).

How do you punch out of the corner if you are already at redline in your selected gear?

[REXman]

If you have actually raced a car, you would know that a combination of engine braking along with holding a gear, can sometimes be crucial to performance. I cant believe I am having to explain this till im blue in the friggin face.

Can we save the for when we know what we are talking about?

Is this a VW thing to hate on performance, Or just to not understand it?

[Corey_R]

REXman, I think that you need to look back at Guy's comments in context, he was talking in the context of "Big Turbo is of couse a different matter, the goal posts have shifted."

Firstly, my car was stage II - which means at least DP as well, but in my case it was the APR Quad TBE. team_v also has a Stage II car, so again someone who has/is experiencing this first hand.

Secondly, I actually do think that the mod would be useful, not necessarily for it not shifting up automatically, but to get rid of the kickdown (which can already be controlled by the driver anyway, it's just easier not to have it there and therefore not to have to worry about it).

But what I question is the performance benefit. And your comments about the topic are just plain incorrect (in the context of stock, stage 1 or stage 2 VWs). My friend has a rather heavily modified R33 Series II GTS-T and I know that in the context of his car that what you are saying is correct. I also know you have extensive experience with WRXs, stock and modified, so I also believe you that in the context of your experience with them, that your comments are correct.

But lets look at the data provided by people who have taken the time to look at this in the context of the VW engines and gearboxes we're talking about:
Acceleration graph & shift points.
So this guy has a Stage I GTI (Bluefin), and has determined that the optimal shift point is at 5800rpm as past that the rate of acceleration drops off. Shifting then puts you back to 3600rpm. Although even still, he notes that the maximum rate of acceleration actually comes at 3000 to 3600rpm, and so ponders whether short shifting so you're in the "maximum rate of acceleration zone" would be quicker in drag races where even the 30ms that the DSG takes to shift would add up. Either way, the numbers show clearly, that holding past 5800rpm "NO DOUBT HINDERS PERFORMANCE" (to quote you REXman, but correct the statement based on the evidence!).

In addition, Arin@APR (who is one of the lucky people who actually works on developing these amazing kits for us... search for the Stage 4 teaser he posted on youtube if you haven't seen it, it's amazing!) has gone and done some logging on the actual DSG shift points.

Now Arin is driving a K04 equipped GTI in these tests. So I'm not sure whether it's a Pirelli or a ED30, or whether he's just done the conversion on regular GTI, but either way, this thing has the same turbo as the R, and since it's at least got a Stage I tune on it, it will be pumping out more than our Golf R's when they arrive, and possibly close to the same as a Stage I tune (The GTI motor with K04 and Stage 1 does ~229kw vs the 239kw in the R, and both do 435Nm). He shows the points that the DSG shifts in the various modes. They are always past the redline. Possibly a bit surprisingly to me, that the car went up to over 7000rpm during a wheelspin moment, indicating that there isn't a rev limiter?

Anyway, the point is, if you're going around a corner and holding 6500rpm, the DSG will let you do that. You can then clear the apex and "punch" out of the corner and it'll let you go to ~6800rpm if you want. But you will have more "punch" if you actually took the corner and shifted into the next gear before the apex and then "punched out" from ~4000rpm.

The R32 for which you provided the link for this software was a NA car and a very different beast. It very definitely benefited from this. The GTI and R? In my 4 years of VW obsession, I haven't come across anything to show it does.

Until there is some data related to these cars to suggest otherwise, as team_v stated, "There is nothing to appreciate though".

[Corey_R]

If you have actually raced a car, you would know that a combination of engine braking along with holding a gear, can sometimes be crucial to performance. I cant believe I am having to explain this till im blue in the friggin face.

Can we save the for when we know what we are talking about?

Is this a VW thing to hate on performance, Or just to not understand it?

Ok, an actual example for you. Rolling along at 80kph and accelerating to 160kph along the straight of a race course in my Stage II GTI. It was quicker to 160kph starting in 3rd gear than it was starting in 2nd gear. This is because in 2nd gear it was already up around 6000rpm and the turbo was already past its optimal speed.

So we're all for performance. But just because one performance car is best driven at the redline, doesn't mean all performance cars are best at redline!

So we're not hating on you dude, we're just trying to explain that it's a different situation in the Golfs. If I still had the Golf, two minutes would convince you of this. I could demonstrate to you in the Polo GTI, but I'm not sure if you'd accept that as a valid test (even though it has the same turbo as the Golf GTI).

[pologti18t]

So we're not hating on you dude, we're just trying to explain that it's a different situation in the Golfs. If I still had the Golf, two minutes would convince you of this. I could demonstrate to you in the Polo GTI, but I'm not sure if you'd accept that as a valid test (even though it has the same turbo as the Golf GTI).

I agree... not much point thrashing a factory turbo car that is tuned for mid-range grunt rather than hi rpm power. I am sure it would be evident what the change up/down points were with the aid of power and torque curves and the gearing of the car.

Rexman Any car/bike (i also own a GSXR750) being held near redline in a corner becomes alot more sensitive to small changes in throttle. I don't particularly like the feeling. Some might.

[oshuyi]

Im not sure what is pointless here. Coreying stay in form mate. Its quite simple. This new feature, allows you to hold your car in gear, without it automatically upshifting, like an auto?. Which is something performance people and the like, would appreciate.

Calm down big fella.

nice one rexman , i couldn't agree more with u, i've never seen a moderator like coreying before.
he's like one of those guys at school, that thinks he knows everything


"Be nice to each other and respect each others opinions. Any personal insults and carrying on as experienced in previous "Manual vs DSG" threads will result in infractions being issued. It may also result in the thread being temporarily closed whilst everyone has a chance to calm down!"