First service at 7,500 km?

[Corey_R]

Maverick.... they are saying there that 15,000 IS for severe conditions, and that otherwise you can service them up to every 30,000 / 24 months. So the fact dealers do the service every 15,000 km here means that they're already acknowledging the severe conditions of this country and our driving style.

[Diesel_vert]

The EU is moving to sulfur free diesel as well, we'll be 20 years behind once again

Depsite the implied meaning, the term "sulfur free" actually means "10 ppm sulfur" in the industry - think it's something to do with technical feasibility .


Our "Severe Operating Conditions" reads a like lot like their "Time/Distance Regime", no?

Time/Distance Regime
It your car is driven in a style if listed below, it may be more appropriate to opt for the Time and Distance regime:
• Extremely uneconomical driving style ie continual maximum acceleration ie. ‘foot to floor’ = Not accounted for in Oz?
• Vehicle fully loaded = Vehicle is often driven under full load or towing a trailer
• Mainly short journeys = Regular short trips or stop and go operation in urban traffic
• Frequent cold starts = High percentage of cold starts; Vehicle is used in areas with winter temperatures over a long period
• Frequent hill climbs = Not accounted for in Oz?
• Frequent towing = Vehicle is often driven under full load or towing a trailer
• City centre driving = Regular short trips or stop and go operation in urban traffic; Regular long periods of idling (e.g. taxis)

Using diesel with elevated sulphur content - irrelevant in Australia since 2009
Regular operation in areas with high levels of dust - okay maybe this (Sydney dust storms anyone though perhaps exception rather than the rule)


I've nothing against good maintenance, I just hate to see Aussie Veedubbers get ripped off needlessly by the dealers (esp. considering the way they treat some of us). Why is it that under the exact same set of severe conditions that we must get our cars serviced every 7,500 km (if that is in fact what the book says) but they can go 15,000 km? One possibility is the lack of 504 00/507 00 oils on the shelves of every Autobarn store et. al. But unless proven otherwise (and I'm happy to stand corrected), I call shenanigans on this one.

[Maverick]

Depsite the implied meaning, the term "sulfur free" actually means "10 ppm sulfur" in the industry - think it's something to do with technical feasibility .

Sulfur free doesn't mean 10 ppm.

10 ppm sulfur is ultra-low sulfur (ULSD)

"Ultra-low sulfur diesel (ULSD) (sulfur is also spelled “sulphur”) is a term used to describe a standard for defining diesel fuel with substantially lowered sulfur contents. As of 2006, almost all of the petroleum-based diesel fuel available in Europe and North America is of a ULSD type."

"Certain EU countries may apply higher standards or require faster transition.[2] For example, Germany implemented a tax incentive of €0.015 per litre of "sulphur free" fuel (both gasoline and diesel) containing less than 10 ppm beginning in January, 2003 and average sulphur content was estimated in 2006 to be 3-5 ppm."

"Since 2003, a "zero" sulfur and very low aromatic content (less than 1% by volume) diesel fuel has been made available on the Swedish market under the name EcoPar. It is used wherever the working environment is highly polluted, like where diesel trucks are used in confined spaces such inside boats in harbours, inside storage houses, during construction of road and rail tunnels & in vehicles that are predominantly run in city centres, etc."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-low_sulfur_diesel

Our "Severe Operating Conditions" reads a like lot like their "Time/Distance Regime", no?

Has nothing to do with it. Do VW fit a tropics pack to cars in the UK? No they don't. Do VW fit a tropics pack to cars in Australia? Yes they do.

I've nothing against good maintenance, I just hate to see Aussie Veedubbers get ripped off needlessly by the dealers (esp. considering the way they treat some of us). Why is it that under the exact same set of severe conditions that we must get our cars serviced every 7,500 km (if that is in fact what the book says) but they can go 15,000 km? One possibility is the lack of 504 00/507 00 oils on the shelves of every Autobarn store et. al. But unless proven otherwise (and I'm happy to stand corrected), I call shenanigans on this one.

Australia is different to the UK, completely different traffic and different weather. And it has nothing to do with 504.00/507.00 oils as these are readily available.

Volkswagen make the car and Volkswagen have said that in Australia cars must be serviced a maximum of every 15,000km and 12 months. They list a set of circumstances under which the car should be serviced more frequently. You can ignore Volkswagen and claim that this is part of a plan to rip us off or you can follow their advice with servicing under the assumption that their engineers who spend tens of thousands of hours testing cars and engines under all different circumstances know what they're doing.

[Diesel_vert]

I hate Wiki sometimes.

Sulfur free doesn't mean 10 ppm.

For all intents and purposes, the term “sulphur free” or “zero sulphur” corresponds to a sulphur content of <10 ppm (see note [13]) and is a common definition used by legislation and industry. Here is one of many examples where "zero" implies "10 or less" - European Environment Agency - Assessment April 2009.

The only fuels which truly don't have sulfur (negligible or trace amounts) are synthetic fuels (think Fischer-Tropsch), such as EcoPar, which I don't see becoming mainstream for a while yet.

Do VW fit a tropics pack to cars in Australia? Yes they do.

That's pretty neat, I guess Oz delivered cars won't have any problems dealing with the heat... so why the shortened intervals if it can cope?

Australia is different to the UK, completely different traffic and different weather.

Traffic congestion is traffic congestion, be it Sydney or Berlin. Seriously, what's the difference? And is a 30°C day in Melbourne any different from a 30°C day in Paris? The wording might be different but they imply the same thing.

They list a set of circumstances under which the car should be serviced more frequently.

I'm interested why this condition - Extremely uneconomical driving style ie continual maximum acceleration ie. ‘foot to floor’ - demands a shortened interval of 15,000 km over there, yet lesser conditions over here demand a 7,500 km drain interval...

You can ignore Volkswagen and claim that this is part of a plan to rip us off or you can follow their advice with servicing under the assumption that their engineers who spend tens of thousands of hours testing cars and engines under all different circumstances know what they're doing.

Are you adamant because you think I'm wrong or because you know something we don't (TSB's, confidential documents, etc.)?

[cme2c]

And engines and oils are different now. Modern oils may be improved but they have a lot more to do..

And they can handle it much better. The revolution goes all the way from whipper snippers to power generation equipment.

Chevron Oil has a technical doc that shows 70 percent of the parasitic drag is from the shearing of oil molecules between bearing surfaces and bearing journals..

Yes, it's always been the case. that's one of the reasons oils are now lighter

Change the oil more often and it reduces this..

Evidence? The study quoted by Diesel vert seems to reach a different conclusion

Oils are lighter now and are expected to work harder which reduces their life as does the temperature of the engine which are hotter than ever before (for efficiency reasons). More power is being extracted as well, there are closer tolerances and engines work harder.

less blowby, less fuel in the oil, less crap in the fuel, better filters. All these things make the oils job easier. Would you run an engine hard when the oil's cold?

That's good but how does that apply to Australia which has different conditions?.

Peugeot Europe 30000 kms, Aus 20000 kms, dealer 10000 kms.

The oil is recycled, fuel consumption drops with fresh oil and it protects the engine. Changing the oil often is really the best way to maintain an engine in top condition.

So, you have oil that has had its long chain molecules chopped up, it's no good according to this philosophy. You strain it, add some more additives and put it back in an engine. How does this make more sense than extending the oil change intervals in the first place?

[Maverick]

For all intents and purposes, the term “sulphur free” or “zero sulphur” corresponds to a sulphur content of <10 ppm (see note [13]) and is a common definition used by legislation and industry. Here is one of many examples where "zero" implies "10 or less"

That wasn't what you said and it wasn't what I responded to. You said

Depsite the implied meaning, the term "sulfur free" actually means "10 ppm sulfur" in the industry - think it's something to do with technical feasibility .

I'm interested why this condition - Extremely uneconomical driving style ie continual maximum acceleration ie. ‘foot to floor’ - demands a shortened interval of 15,000 km over there, yet lesser conditions over here demand a 7,500 km drain interval...

Severe conditions recommend that they use the distance/time method. You'll find that the same recommendations apply as they do in Australia where the car is serviced more frequently. Elsawin seems to indicate this as well.

Are you adamant because you think I'm wrong or because you know something we don't (TSB's, confidential documents, etc.)?

I'm not adamant at all, what I said was

Volkswagen make the car and Volkswagen have said that in Australia cars must be serviced a maximum of every 15,000km and 12 months. They list a set of circumstances under which the car should be serviced more frequently. You can ignore Volkswagen and claim that this is part of a plan to rip us off or you can follow their advice with servicing under the assumption that their engineers who spend tens of thousands of hours testing cars and engines under all different circumstances know what they're doing.

Shouldn't we follow Volkswagens recommendations rather than trying to read into European recommendations?

[Maverick]

So, you have oil that has had its long chain molecules chopped up, it's no good according to this philosophy. You strain it, add some more additives and put it back in an engine. How does this make more sense than extending the oil change intervals in the first place?

Did you read what I wrote? I was responding to the claim that it's not environmentally responsible to change the oil frequently. The days have long gone when oil was tipped into the sewer or out the back of the mechanics and they recycle it now for use as something else.

The oil is recycled, fuel consumption drops with fresh oil and it protects the engine. Changing the oil often is really the best way to maintain an engine in top condition.

Note: the oil is recycled and fresh oil is added.

[Preen59]

Wow.. Lots of excellent discussion here..

I service the Caddy every 5,000 K's.

[Diesel_vert]

That wasn't what you said and it wasn't what I responded to. You said...

True that, though in hindsight I should have worded it better. But you can see where I'm coming from, yeah?

Severe conditions recommend that they use the distance/time method. You'll find that the same recommendations apply as they do in Australia where the car is serviced more frequently. Elsawin seems to indicate this as well.

I'm simply saying that our "severe" conditions are not that dissimilar as people might think if you think about it, and that 7,500 km is a bit short if you use 504 00/507 00 oils (and just to clarify to everyone, I'm not advocating the "LongLife Regime" in Oz).

I'm not adamant at all, what I said was...

Adamant was probably too strong a word. As you know my views are my own. Is your disagreement based on your own opinion or something more factual? I've been to your site - you seem to have access to a lot of internal VW information and thought 'have I been arguing with a VW insider who's secretly hanging out on a car forum?' or something like that...

Shouldn't we follow Volkswagens recommendations rather than trying to read into European recommendations?

I'm grossly oversimplifying here, but VW were probably faced with the old "here's three, pick two" scenario when designing the 504 00/507 00 oil.

Extended-intervals/Low-SAPS/cheap.

They clearly chose the first two options.

Why not take advantage of this technology VW offers? Since it's potentially good for 30,000km, or 15,000 km in severe conditions (i.e. foot-to-floor driving), it should be good to drain every 15,000km. If one still wants further peace-of-mind, just change the oil filter and top up every 7,500 km (replenishing regularly, because even small amounts of top up oil can do wonders). Now I know why the car manufacturers keep banging on about topping up fluids.

But if one is still not convinced, save yourself the stress of deciding and/or the cost of 504 00/507 00 oils - buy a 502 00 oil and drain every 7,500 km instead.

Either way - breathe easy!

[Diesel_vert]

Peugeot Europe 30000 kms, Aus 20000 kms, dealer 10000 kms.

Just to expand on this, Peugeot's official service intervals (for most engines) are set at 30,000 km for normal conditions and 20,000 km for severe conditions (with a "fluids top up only" service at 15,000 km and 10,000 km respectively). Like VW, Australia was deemed by Peugeot to fall in the "severe" category, hence the 20,000 km intervals. But unlike VW, they then didn't go and cut the official severe interval by half again to 10,000 km (i.e. your 7,500 km interval).

There is a small minority of dealers who charge money (but not exorbitantly) for a "service" every 10,000 km (which basically just amounts to an oil change) despite the official recommendation. This sort of behaviour was also common in the US when the TDI engines were introduced in 1999 with 10,000 mile (15,000 km) intervals via the mandatory use of 505 01 oils. VW dealers, either through incompetence or knowingly, took advantage of the ingrained American culture of 5,000 km oil changes and charged accordingly. Many debates and flames ensued on the forums, and in the end the dealers were found to be needlessly changing and charging - I refer to this forum, TDIClub Forums.

Not that the Peugeot info has anything to do with us, which is merely an interesting observation. However the VW info on the other hand...