DSG7 0AM Vag Com Data Logs

[cktsi]

Would a DSG coast further from 50 to 0 in neutral than in D? If it does then fuel savings would negate each other, as you have pointed out it uses fuel in neutral but then it may coast further unless the friction losses in gear is minimal.

I see both arguments, but I tend to agree with Stoney that the fuel savings are probably negligible. I'll be eating my hat of course when I'm in the middle of nowhere and cr@pp1ng my pants for not driving economically desperately searching for a petrol station.

In a real world situation in somewhere like sydney, how often would you be in a scenario where you could coast from 50 to 0 in neutral?

My main worry in selecting neutral is that I'm not confident of the logic of the locking pin on the transmission. Sometimes it lets you shift from N to D, other times not. I think you have to be stationary for it to lock, but sometimes even on a slightly slow speed it locks me out. What if there's a car behind me and I cannot get into gear & it runs into me cos I cannot drive off?

Anyone know the logic?

To be on the safe side, I'd just keep it in D.

[logger]

...My main worry in selecting neutral is that I'm not confident of the logic of the locking pin on the transmission. Sometimes it lets you shift from N to D, other times not. I think you have to be stationary for it to lock, but sometimes even on a slightly slow speed it locks me out. What if there's a car behind me and I cannot get into gear & it runs into me cos I cannot drive off?

Anyone know the logic?

Yes, its a time delay.

"If the selector lever is set to the "N" position for longer than 2 sec., the control unit supplies the solenoid with current. As a result of this, the locking pin is pressed into the locking pin latch "N" . The selector can no longer be unintentionally moved into a gear. The locking pin is released when the brake is activated."

...and a couple of observations from testing;
This logic only applies below ~ 2-3kph. Above that you can flick in and out merrily.
You only need to give it a mere hint of brake pedal to unlock.
You can actually hear the lock pin solenoid activated if you listen for it.

[logger]

Here is a high sample rate log of what the K2 clutch does when crawling up a hill in 2nd gear. I had to apply light throttle to keep it in gear "D2", occasionally I would back off fractionally, just enough to make it downchange to 1st. 2.3mm represents open K2 clutch which would be happening when 1st gear K1 in use. This is when not enough throttle on hill & it drops back to 1st.

____Time___mm

Time	 mm
0.08	2.3
0.21	2.3
0.33	2.3
0.45	2.3
0.56	2.3
0.67	2.3
0.81	2.3
0.92	2.3
1.03	2.3
1.15	2.3
1.26	2.3
1.4	2.3
1.51	2.3
1.62	2.3
1.73	2.3
1.84	2.3
1.97	2.3
2.07	2.3
2.19	2.3
2.31	2.3
2.42	2.3
2.55	2.3
2.67	2.3
2.78	2.3
2.88	2.3
2.99	2.3
3.13	2.3
3.24	2.3
3.35	2.3
3.46	2.3
3.57	2.3
3.71	2.3
3.82	2.3
3.93	2.3
4.04	2.3
4.15	2.3
4.28	2.3
4.38	2.3
4.49	2.3
4.6	2.3
4.71	2.3
4.85	2.3
4.96	2.3
5.07	2.3
5.18	2.3
5.29	3.1
5.42	9.2
5.54	10.5
5.65	12.1
5.76	14.3
5.86	15
6	15.2
6.11	15.3
6.22	15.4
6.33	15.6
6.44	15.6
6.58	15.6
6.69	15.7
6.8	15.7
6.91	15.8
7.02	15.8
7.16	15.8
7.27	15.9
7.38	15.8
7.49	15.5
7.6	15
7.73	11.7
7.84	9.5
7.95	2.3
8.06	2.3
8.18	2.3
8.31	2.3
8.43	2.3
8.55	2.3
8.66	8.7
8.77	9.9
8.9	12.5
9.01	14.2
9.12	15.1
9.23	15.7
9.34	15.5
9.48	15.4
9.59	15.8
9.7	16.1
9.81	16.1
9.92	16.5
10.06	16.7
10.17	16.8
10.28	16.9
10.39	16.9
10.5	16.9
10.63	17
10.75	17.1
10.86	17.1
10.96	17.1
11.07	17.1
11.22	17.2
11.32	17.1
11.43	17.1
11.55	17.1
11.65	17.1
11.79	17.1
11.9	17.1
12.01	17.1
12.12	17
12.23	16.8
12.37	16.8
12.48	16.8
12.59	16.7
12.7	16.7
12.81	16.7
12.94	16.7
13.06	16.7
13.16	16.7
13.27	16.7
13.38	16.7
13.52	16.7
13.63	16.6
13.74	16.5
13.85	16.3
13.96	16.2
14.1	16.2
14.22	16.2
14.33	16.2
14.44	16.2
14.55	16.2
14.69	16
14.8	16
14.91	16
15.02	16
15.13	16
15.27	16
15.38	16
15.49	16
15.6	15.9
15.71	15.9
15.84	15.6
15.94	15.5
16.05	15.4
16.16	15.4
16.27	15.3
16.41	15.1
16.52	15.1
16.63	14.9
16.74	14.2
16.85	13.2
16.98	12.1
17.1	11.3
17.21	10.6
17.33	10.3
17.44	10.3
17.58	10.4
17.69	10.4
17.8	10.4
17.91	10.4
18.02	10.4
18.15	10.4
18.27	10.3
18.37	11
18.48	11.9
18.59	12.8
18.73	13.8
18.84	14.4
18.95	14.8
19.06	15.1
19.17	15.4
19.31	15.6
19.42	15.8
19.53	16
19.64	16.1
19.75	16.1
19.89	16
20	15.4
20.11	14.8
20.22	13.7
20.33	12.2
20.46	10.4
20.57	9.5
20.68	7.2
20.79	2.3
20.91	2.3
21.04	2.3
21.15	2.3
21.26	2.3
21.37	2.3
21.48	2.3
21.62	2.3
21.73	2.3
21.84	2.3
21.95	2.3
22.06	2.3
22.21	2.3
22.32	2.3
22.43	2.3
22.54	2.3
22.65	2.3
22.79	2.3
22.9	2.3
23.01	2.3
23.12	2.3
23.23	2.3
23.36	2.3
23.48	2.3
23.59	2.3
23.69	2.3
23.8	2.3
23.94	2.3
24.05	2.3
24.16	2.3
24.27	2.3
24.38	2.3
24.52	2.3
24.63	2.3
24.74	2.3
24.85	2.3
24.96	2.3
25.1	2.3
25.22	2.3
25.33	2.3
25.44	2.3
25.55	2.3
25.69	2.3
25.8	2.3
25.91	2.3
26.02	2.3
26.13	2.3
26.27	2.3
26.38	2.3
26.49	2.3
26.6	2.3
26.71	2.3
26.84	2.3
26.96	2.3
27.06	2.3
27.17	2.3
27.28	2.3
27.42	2.3
27.53	2.3
27.64	2.3
27.75	2.3
27.86	2.3
28	2.3
28.11	2.3
28.22	2.3
28.33	2.3
28.44	2.3
28.57	2.3
28.67	2.3
28.78	2.3
28.89	2.3
29	2.3
29.15	2.3
29.26	2.3
29.37	2.3
29.49	2.3
29.59	2.3
29.73	2.3
29.84	2.3
29.95	2.3
30.06	2.3
30.17	2.3
30.31	2.3
30.42	2.3
30.53	2.3
30.64	2.3
30.75	2.3
30.88	2.3
31	2.3
31.11	2.3
31.21	2.3
31.32	2.3
31.46	2.3
31.57	2.3
31.68	2.3
31.79	2.3
31.9	2.3
32.04	2.3
32.15	2.3
32.26	2.3
32.37	2.3
32.48	2.3
32.61	2.3
32.73	2.3
32.84	2.3
32.95	2.3
33.06	2.3
33.2	2.3
33.32	2.3
33.43	2.3
33.54	2.3
33.65	2.3
33.78	2.3
33.88	2.3
33.99	2.3
34.1	2.3
34.22	2.3
34.36	2.3
34.47	2.3
34.58	2.3
34.69	2.3
34.8	2.3
34.94	2.3
35.05	2.3
35.16	2.3
35.27	2.3
35.38	2.3
35.52	2.3
35.63	2.3
35.74	2.3
35.85	2.3
35.96	2.3
36.09	2.3
36.21	2.3
36.33	2.3
36.44	2.3
36.55	2.3
36.69	2.3
36.8	2.3
36.91	2.3
37.02	2.3
37.13	2.3
37.27	2.3
37.38	2.3
37.49	2.3
37.59	2.3
37.7	2.3
37.84	2.3
37.95	2.3
38.07	2.3
38.17	2.3
38.28	2.3
38.42	2.3
38.53	2.3
38.64	2.3
38.75	2.3
38.86	2.3
38.99	2.3
39.09	2.3
39.21	2.3
39.33	2.3
39.44	2.3
39.57	2.3
39.68	2.3
39.79	2.3
39.9	2.3
40.01	2.3
40.15	2.3
40.26	2.3
40.37	2.3
40.48	2.3
40.59	2.3
40.73	2.3
40.84	2.3
40.95	2.3
41.06	2.3
41.17	2.3
41.3	2.3
41.42	2.3
41.53	2.3
41.64	2.3
41.74	2.3
41.88	2.3
41.99	2.3
42.1	2.3
42.21	2.3
42.32	2.3
42.46	4.7
42.57	9.1
42.68	9.9
42.79	11.4
42.9	13.7
43.04	15.5
43.15	15.9
43.26	15.9
43.37	16.1
43.48	16.2
43.61	16.3
43.73	16.2
43.83	16.3
43.94	16.4
44.05	16.5
44.19	16.5
44.31	16.5
44.41	16.3
44.52	16.3
44.63	16.3
44.77	16.4
44.88	16.4
44.99	16.5
45.1	16.5
45.22	16.5
45.37	16.5
45.47	16.7
45.58	16.7
45.69	16.7
45.8	16.7
45.94	16.7
46.05	16.7
46.16	16.7
46.27	16.7
46.38	16.7
46.51	16.7
46.61	16.8
46.72	16.8
46.83	16.7
46.94	16.7
47.08	16.7
47.19	16.7
47.3	16.7
47.41	16.7
47.52	16.7
47.65	16.7
47.77	16.7
47.88	16.6
47.98	16.6
48.09	16.7
48.23	16.8
48.34	16.8
48.46	16.8
48.56	16.8
48.67	16.8
48.81	16.8
48.92	16.7
49.03	16.5
49.15	16.4
49.26	16.2
49.4	16.2
49.51	16.1
49.62	16.1
49.73	16.1
49.84	16.1
49.98	16.1
50.09	16
50.2	16
50.31	16
50.42	16
50.55	16.4
50.65	16.4
50.76	16.5
50.87	16.5
50.98	16.5
51.12	16.6
51.23	16.6
51.34	16.7
51.45	16.7
51.56	16.5
51.69	16.2
51.81	16.1
51.92	16.1
52.02	16
52.13	16
52.28	15.8
52.38	15.8
52.49	15.8
52.6	15.8
52.71	15.9
52.85	15.9
52.96	16
53.07	16
53.18	16.1
53.29	16
53.43	16
53.54	16
53.65	16
53.76	16
53.87	16
54	16.1
54.12	16.1
54.22	16
54.33	16
54.45	16
54.58	16.1
54.7	16.1
54.8	16.1
54.91	16
55.02	16
55.16	16
55.27	16
55.38	16
55.49	16
55.6	16
55.73	16
55.83	16
55.94	16
56.05	16
56.16	16
56.3	16
56.41	15.8
56.52	15.6
56.63	15.5
56.74	15.4
56.87	15.4
56.99	15.4
57.1	15.3
57.21	15.2
57.33	15.2
57.47	15.1
57.58	15.1
57.69	15.4
57.8	16.1
57.91	16.3
58.04	16.2
58.16	16.1
58.27	16.5
58.37	16.5
58.48	16.5
58.62	16.5
58.73	16.4
58.84	16.4
58.95	16.3
59.06	16.3
59.21	16.2
59.33	16.2
59.44	16.1
59.54	15.8
59.65	15.7
59.79	15.8
59.91	15.8
60.01	15.8
60.12	15.8
60.23	15.8
60.37	15.8
60.48	15.7
60.59	15.6
60.7	15.6
60.81	15.6
60.94	15.7
61.04	15.7
61.15	15.7
61.26	15.6
61.37	15.6
61.51	15.6
61.62	15.8
61.73	15.8
61.84	15.8
61.95	15.7
62.08	15.8
62.2	15.9
62.32	15.9
62.43	15.9
62.54	15.9
62.68	16
62.79	16
62.9	16
63.01	16
63.12	16
63.25	16
63.37	16
63.48	16
63.59	15.9
63.69	15.9
63.83	15.7
63.94	15.7
64.06	15.8
64.16	15.6
64.27	15.5
64.41	15.5
64.52	15.4
64.63	15.4
64.74	15.4
64.85	15.4
64.98	15.5
65.08	15.5
65.19	15.5
65.3	15.6
65.41	15.6
65.55	15.6
65.66	15.7
65.77	15.2
65.88	14.5
65.99	12.9
66.12	10.1
66.24	7.6
66.35	2.3
66.46	2.3
66.56	2.3
66.7	2.3
66.81	2.3
66.93	2.3
67.03	2.3
67.16	2.3
67.3	2.3
67.41	2.3
67.52	2.3
67.63	2.3
67.73	2.3
67.87	2.3

As an aside - initially it was climbing every hill I pointed it at in gear "D2" with revs staying at IDLE and foot off accelerator, never down changing. Then I remember the APR stage 1 tune was active. Disabled the tune and it drops back from "D2" to "D1" on anything more than a slight slope even with a touch of throttle. Go APR....

[cktsi]

Here is a high sample rate log of what the K2 clutch does when crawling up a hill in 2nd gear.

From your earlier spreadsheets looks like the clutch is slipping the way a manual clutch would be ridden on friction point cos I think the values when fully engaged were in the 17's, but a lot of the time in "D2" it's in the 15's.

I'm no mechanic, so I'll ask what may appear to be a dumb question. Is it creeping in 2nd rather than 1st because clutch plate wear is lesser in 2nd gear? It's just i've noticed in a manual if I have really worn clutch plates, the majority of slippage happens in 1st, but not present / noticeable in higher gears (well, at least until the wear becomes chronic).

May not be an informed conclusion from the observation.

[cme2c]

From your earlier spreadsheets looks like the clutch is slipping the way a manual clutch would be ridden on friction point cos I think the values when fully engaged were in the 17's, but a lot of the time in "D2" it's in the 15's.

I'm no mechanic, so I'll ask what may appear to be a dumb question. Is it creeping in 2nd rather than 1st because clutch plate wear is lesser in 2nd gear? It's just i've noticed in a manual if I have really worn clutch plates, the majority of slippage happens in 1st, but not present / noticeable in higher gears (well, at least until the wear becomes chronic).

May not be an informed conclusion from the observation.

Your observation is interesting. I have found the reverse, that is, more slip in higher gears. I also find interesting just how much the clutches are slipping in the 7sp DSG and wonder how long they will last, compared to wet cluches in the 6sp.

Being an old motorcyclist and having to remove and replace wet clutches in the dim, dark past, I appreciate the larger friction area and lower friction. I also appreciate the amount of clutch material floating around the gearbox etc.

So the dry clutch may not last as long, but the gearbocx internals have an easier time. I wonder if there are any high milage dry clutch DSGs out there.

[logger]

I have made quite a bit of progress in the last week. (Ross Tech chaps gave me some good help). I used to know about 30 fields. Now I know pretty well all of them. Here is a reasonably complete list of what Mechatronics unit looks at to control the DSG7.

brake light 
brake pressure 
accelerator position
Kick Down 
Zero Accelerator (ie foot is off pedal)
Tiptronic, Source (CAN or Steering wheel) 
selector lever position

speeds IN
transmission input, speed 3 
engine speed, (G28/CAN) 
transmission input, speed 1
transmission input, speed 2 

speeds OUT
speed output, shaft 1 
speed output, shaft 2 
speed output, ESP (CAN) 
used, output speed 

direction of rotation, shaft 1
direction of rotation, shaft 2

Vehicle Speed

actual torque 
engine torque after, intervention (calculated) 
engine torque without intervention (calculated) 

engine torque limit (Engine), 
loss of torque, Engine 
loss of torque, transmission 
barometric pressure, (height information) 
 
temperature, microprocessor 

power supply state, gear train half 1 (target) 
power supply state, gear train half 2 (target) 
Voltage, gear train half 1 
Voltage, gear train half 2 
 
coolant, temperature 
intake air, temperature 
ambient, temperature 

lever lock status
lever lock Combination Lamp 

starter release (ie. is engine allowed to start)
 
selector lever position (instrument cluster) 
 
requirement, air compressor, 
cooling fan 
 
increasing, idle speed

Gear Request (When YES gear change has been requested)

transmission torque (nominal value) 

clutch, temperature 
clutch 1 
clutch 2 

driving strategies 1/2/3 Lambda

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hydraulic Pump  (Supplies the Mechatronics Hydraulic system)
pressure supply
hydraulic pump, (reference speed) 
hydraulic pump, (actual speed) 
hydraulic pump, Total Run Cycles 
Total Runtime
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ignition ON time
CAN-Version 

Gears Selected
Drive Shaft 1, Gear, Display Range: NN/1N/3N/N5/N7/Nx/xN
Drive Shaft 2, Gear, Display Range: NN/2N/4N/N6/NR/Nx/xN
?N = Selected Gear located on Output shaft 1
N? = Selected Gear located on Output shaft 2
NN = No gear engaged to Drive/input shaft
xN = Gear in transit on Output shaft 1
Nx = Gear in transit on Output shaft 2
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

steering wheel paddles, status 
brake status 
steering column module status 
Gateway, status 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

gear train half 1, (nominal pressure) 
gear train half 1, (actual pressure) 
gear train half 1, target (valve current) 
gear train half 1, actual (valve current) 
gear train half 1, valve current (value) 
gear train half 1, valve Duty cycle 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

gear train half 2, (nominal pressure) 
gear train half 2, (actual pressure) 
gear train half 2, target (valve current) 
gear train half 2, actual (valve current) 
gear train half 2, valve current (value) 
gear train half 2, valve Duty cycle 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Advanced Control Unit Identification I 
Advanced Control Unit Identification II 
serial number 
Advanced Control Unit Identification III 
Advanced Control Unit Identification IV 
Mechatronics identification 
Advanced Control Unit Identification V 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

clutch 1 
clutch 1, desired torque 
clutch 1, actual torque 
Clutch Path 1, (G617) target 
Clutch Path 1, (G617) Actual position 
clutch 1 AD is 1, actual position 
clutch 1 AD-value of 2, the actual position 
valve 3 in the gear train half 1 (N435) 
valve 3 (N435), gear train half 1 (target) 
valve 3 (N435), gear train half 1 (actual) 
clutch 1, friction coefficient 
clutch 1, curve 
clutch 1, temperature 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
clutch 2 
clutch 2, desired torque 
clutch 2, actual torque 
Clutch Path 2, (G618) target 
Clutch Path 2, (G618) Actual position 
clutch 2 OD-value 1, actual position 
clutch 2 OD value of 2, the actual position 
valve 3 in the gear train half 2 (N439) 
valve 3 (N439), gear train half 2 (target) 
valve 3 (N439), gear train half 2 (actual) 
clutch 2, coefficient of friction 
clutch 2, curve 
clutch 2, temperature 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
displacement sensor 2 for Gear Plate 1/3
displacement sensor 1 for gear plate 2/4
displacement sensor 3 for passage plate 5/7
displacement sensor 4 for gear disc 6/R 

& For each gear
adaptation 
Engage Position mm
Synchronous Position mm 
neutral mm

AND a stack more displacement sensor stuff including
respective selector solenoid valves. 
etc etc ...

I can pull any or all of the above stuff out now. Usual issues with sample rate though. 10 per sec for a single value and back to about 1 per sec for 12 items. Also can dump all several hundred values over about 30 seconds into an csv.

Some stuff I have worked out or read..

*Noticed that there are at 2 or 3 diff ratios in use, which is a clever way to make the unit more compact.

*Oils circuit uses a single hyd pump to supply two halves. There are eight solenoid valves. Two to regulate the pressure to each half. Two for the clutches and four for the gear actuators.
Each half has four solenoid valves.
1&1 in each half operate Gears 1/3 2/4
2&2 in each half operate Gears 5/7 6/R
3&3 in each half operates respective clutch
4&4 in each half regulates pressure to half & can shut off and isolate a half if it fails.

*Hyd pump has an accumulator and on cursory look can make 2 or 3 gear changes on residual pressure before it needing to fire up and rebuild pressure.

*I think (but am not yet sure) that the clutch plates have about 10mm of life in them and it may be possible to track their wear from VAG-COM. Will investgate this further. Could someone who knows clutches comment as to whether this would sound reasonable?

Thats about it for now.

[logger]

DSG7 hyd pump.xls is a log of what the Mechatronic Hyd pump does during a short drive around town. Shows that it runs a little over 10% of the time, typically for 2.5 secs each occasion while maintaining hyd pressure between ~ 45 and 60 bar. Mine has run for about 8.5 hours and nearly 12,000 cycles in around 70 hours of driving time. Lets hope this little sucker has plenty of cycles in it. The log is at 0.5 sec sample rate and shows the press drop, when the pumps runs and when gear changes are requested. Pump does not necessarily run during changes prvided accumulator press is sufficient. Pump ran 22 times in a 7 min drive while there were 27 gear changes.

[soogs]

Yes, its a time delay.

"If the selector lever is set to the "N" position for longer than 2 sec., the control unit supplies the solenoid with current. As a result of this, the locking pin is pressed into the locking pin latch "N" . The selector can no longer be unintentionally moved into a gear. The locking pin is released when the brake is activated."

That's interesting, learn something new everyday. Wonder what the reason for is.

So if you are stationary for more than 2 secs in N, say red lights, then you cannot engage D unless you press the brake? Cos in auto cars, occassionally, I shift the gears to N at red lights to give my foot a rest. Sounds like that's not possible in a DSG

[gerhard]

That's interesting, learn something new everyday. Wonder what the reason for is.

So if you are stationary for more than 2 secs in N, say red lights, then you cannot engage D unless you press the brake? Cos in auto cars, occassionally, I shift the gears to N at red lights to give my foot a rest. Sounds like that's not possible in a DSG

It's to prevent stupid Americans having another reason for a recall program.

It's not a torque converter auto car, and does not behave the way they do.

I don't understand which foot gets a rest when you put a TC auto into neutral at the lights. If it's not dead flat the car will roll and you will have to rest your foot on the brake, same as in any manual car. I can't say that I've ever needed to rest my foot in a TC auto car, you must have a very poor foot strength

I don't put my DSG into neutral at the lights, it's designed to not need that.

The safety switch is there to prevent the car being put into drive when there is no driver present, such as when you are running the engine in a driveway or service centre, taking diagnostics, or just getting out to open or close a gate or garage door. If your passenger or a child or a dog were to snick it into D or R it would take off, wouldn't it?.

[logger]

That's interesting, learn something new everyday. Wonder what the reason for is.

So if you are stationary for more than 2 secs in N, say red lights, then you cannot engage D unless you press the brake? Cos in auto cars, occassionally, I shift the gears to N at red lights to give my foot a rest. Sounds like that's not possible in a DSG

Like Gerhard says the reason is to prevent inadvertent selection and not to prevent damage to the gearbox, which was the other candidate. But play with it a bit and you will see it is easy enough to defeat. It only needs the lightest brake pedal pressure to unlock. So you could still sit @ the lights in "N", lick the brake pedal, select "D" & off you go. You could also just sit stationary in "N", resting your foot, & acquire RSI in your arm by shuffling between "D" & "N" every 1.5sec and it will not lock I tend to leave it in "D" though.