DSG7 0AM Vag Com Data Logs

[Stoney!]

If your worried about 20 ml of fuel then why do you own a car seriousley lol.

I'm sorry but I see that as taking it a little to far, I TRY to accelerate gently a lot of the time, and make sure I down change through the gears (manual) to keep it in fuel shut off mode.... but theres only so far you can go before you lose all driving enjoyment, then whats the point of owning such a nice car.....

Just drive it normally and you will find it to be a very efficient car, they are made to be that way, anything you do won't necessarily make it better.

Stoney!

[cktsi]

Would a DSG coast further from 50 to 0 in neutral than in D? If it does then fuel savings would negate each other, as you have pointed out it uses fuel in neutral but then it may coast further unless the friction losses in gear is minimal.

I see both arguments, but I tend to agree with Stoney that the fuel savings are probably negligible. I'll be eating my hat of course when I'm in the middle of nowhere and cr@pp1ng my pants for not driving economically desperately searching for a petrol station.

In a real world situation in somewhere like sydney, how often would you be in a scenario where you could coast from 50 to 0 in neutral?

My main worry in selecting neutral is that I'm not confident of the logic of the locking pin on the transmission. Sometimes it lets you shift from N to D, other times not. I think you have to be stationary for it to lock, but sometimes even on a slightly slow speed it locks me out. What if there's a car behind me and I cannot get into gear & it runs into me cos I cannot drive off?

Anyone know the logic?

To be on the safe side, I'd just keep it in D.

[logger]

...My main worry in selecting neutral is that I'm not confident of the logic of the locking pin on the transmission. Sometimes it lets you shift from N to D, other times not. I think you have to be stationary for it to lock, but sometimes even on a slightly slow speed it locks me out. What if there's a car behind me and I cannot get into gear & it runs into me cos I cannot drive off?

Anyone know the logic?

Yes, its a time delay.

"If the selector lever is set to the "N" position for longer than 2 sec., the control unit supplies the solenoid with current. As a result of this, the locking pin is pressed into the locking pin latch "N" . The selector can no longer be unintentionally moved into a gear. The locking pin is released when the brake is activated."

...and a couple of observations from testing;
This logic only applies below ~ 2-3kph. Above that you can flick in and out merrily.
You only need to give it a mere hint of brake pedal to unlock.
You can actually hear the lock pin solenoid activated if you listen for it.

[logger]

Here is a high sample rate log of what the K2 clutch does when crawling up a hill in 2nd gear. I had to apply light throttle to keep it in gear "D2", occasionally I would back off fractionally, just enough to make it downchange to 1st. 2.3mm represents open K2 clutch which would be happening when 1st gear K1 in use. This is when not enough throttle on hill & it drops back to 1st.

____Time___mm

Time	 mm
0.08	2.3
0.21	2.3
0.33	2.3
0.45	2.3
0.56	2.3
0.67	2.3
0.81	2.3
0.92	2.3
1.03	2.3
1.15	2.3
1.26	2.3
1.4	2.3
1.51	2.3
1.62	2.3
1.73	2.3
1.84	2.3
1.97	2.3
2.07	2.3
2.19	2.3
2.31	2.3
2.42	2.3
2.55	2.3
2.67	2.3
2.78	2.3
2.88	2.3
2.99	2.3
3.13	2.3
3.24	2.3
3.35	2.3
3.46	2.3
3.57	2.3
3.71	2.3
3.82	2.3
3.93	2.3
4.04	2.3
4.15	2.3
4.28	2.3
4.38	2.3
4.49	2.3
4.6	2.3
4.71	2.3
4.85	2.3
4.96	2.3
5.07	2.3
5.18	2.3
5.29	3.1
5.42	9.2
5.54	10.5
5.65	12.1
5.76	14.3
5.86	15
6	15.2
6.11	15.3
6.22	15.4
6.33	15.6
6.44	15.6
6.58	15.6
6.69	15.7
6.8	15.7
6.91	15.8
7.02	15.8
7.16	15.8
7.27	15.9
7.38	15.8
7.49	15.5
7.6	15
7.73	11.7
7.84	9.5
7.95	2.3
8.06	2.3
8.18	2.3
8.31	2.3
8.43	2.3
8.55	2.3
8.66	8.7
8.77	9.9
8.9	12.5
9.01	14.2
9.12	15.1
9.23	15.7
9.34	15.5
9.48	15.4
9.59	15.8
9.7	16.1
9.81	16.1
9.92	16.5
10.06	16.7
10.17	16.8
10.28	16.9
10.39	16.9
10.5	16.9
10.63	17
10.75	17.1
10.86	17.1
10.96	17.1
11.07	17.1
11.22	17.2
11.32	17.1
11.43	17.1
11.55	17.1
11.65	17.1
11.79	17.1
11.9	17.1
12.01	17.1
12.12	17
12.23	16.8
12.37	16.8
12.48	16.8
12.59	16.7
12.7	16.7
12.81	16.7
12.94	16.7
13.06	16.7
13.16	16.7
13.27	16.7
13.38	16.7
13.52	16.7
13.63	16.6
13.74	16.5
13.85	16.3
13.96	16.2
14.1	16.2
14.22	16.2
14.33	16.2
14.44	16.2
14.55	16.2
14.69	16
14.8	16
14.91	16
15.02	16
15.13	16
15.27	16
15.38	16
15.49	16
15.6	15.9
15.71	15.9
15.84	15.6
15.94	15.5
16.05	15.4
16.16	15.4
16.27	15.3
16.41	15.1
16.52	15.1
16.63	14.9
16.74	14.2
16.85	13.2
16.98	12.1
17.1	11.3
17.21	10.6
17.33	10.3
17.44	10.3
17.58	10.4
17.69	10.4
17.8	10.4
17.91	10.4
18.02	10.4
18.15	10.4
18.27	10.3
18.37	11
18.48	11.9
18.59	12.8
18.73	13.8
18.84	14.4
18.95	14.8
19.06	15.1
19.17	15.4
19.31	15.6
19.42	15.8
19.53	16
19.64	16.1
19.75	16.1
19.89	16
20	15.4
20.11	14.8
20.22	13.7
20.33	12.2
20.46	10.4
20.57	9.5
20.68	7.2
20.79	2.3
20.91	2.3
21.04	2.3
21.15	2.3
21.26	2.3
21.37	2.3
21.48	2.3
21.62	2.3
21.73	2.3
21.84	2.3
21.95	2.3
22.06	2.3
22.21	2.3
22.32	2.3
22.43	2.3
22.54	2.3
22.65	2.3
22.79	2.3
22.9	2.3
23.01	2.3
23.12	2.3
23.23	2.3
23.36	2.3
23.48	2.3
23.59	2.3
23.69	2.3
23.8	2.3
23.94	2.3
24.05	2.3
24.16	2.3
24.27	2.3
24.38	2.3
24.52	2.3
24.63	2.3
24.74	2.3
24.85	2.3
24.96	2.3
25.1	2.3
25.22	2.3
25.33	2.3
25.44	2.3
25.55	2.3
25.69	2.3
25.8	2.3
25.91	2.3
26.02	2.3
26.13	2.3
26.27	2.3
26.38	2.3
26.49	2.3
26.6	2.3
26.71	2.3
26.84	2.3
26.96	2.3
27.06	2.3
27.17	2.3
27.28	2.3
27.42	2.3
27.53	2.3
27.64	2.3
27.75	2.3
27.86	2.3
28	2.3
28.11	2.3
28.22	2.3
28.33	2.3
28.44	2.3
28.57	2.3
28.67	2.3
28.78	2.3
28.89	2.3
29	2.3
29.15	2.3
29.26	2.3
29.37	2.3
29.49	2.3
29.59	2.3
29.73	2.3
29.84	2.3
29.95	2.3
30.06	2.3
30.17	2.3
30.31	2.3
30.42	2.3
30.53	2.3
30.64	2.3
30.75	2.3
30.88	2.3
31	2.3
31.11	2.3
31.21	2.3
31.32	2.3
31.46	2.3
31.57	2.3
31.68	2.3
31.79	2.3
31.9	2.3
32.04	2.3
32.15	2.3
32.26	2.3
32.37	2.3
32.48	2.3
32.61	2.3
32.73	2.3
32.84	2.3
32.95	2.3
33.06	2.3
33.2	2.3
33.32	2.3
33.43	2.3
33.54	2.3
33.65	2.3
33.78	2.3
33.88	2.3
33.99	2.3
34.1	2.3
34.22	2.3
34.36	2.3
34.47	2.3
34.58	2.3
34.69	2.3
34.8	2.3
34.94	2.3
35.05	2.3
35.16	2.3
35.27	2.3
35.38	2.3
35.52	2.3
35.63	2.3
35.74	2.3
35.85	2.3
35.96	2.3
36.09	2.3
36.21	2.3
36.33	2.3
36.44	2.3
36.55	2.3
36.69	2.3
36.8	2.3
36.91	2.3
37.02	2.3
37.13	2.3
37.27	2.3
37.38	2.3
37.49	2.3
37.59	2.3
37.7	2.3
37.84	2.3
37.95	2.3
38.07	2.3
38.17	2.3
38.28	2.3
38.42	2.3
38.53	2.3
38.64	2.3
38.75	2.3
38.86	2.3
38.99	2.3
39.09	2.3
39.21	2.3
39.33	2.3
39.44	2.3
39.57	2.3
39.68	2.3
39.79	2.3
39.9	2.3
40.01	2.3
40.15	2.3
40.26	2.3
40.37	2.3
40.48	2.3
40.59	2.3
40.73	2.3
40.84	2.3
40.95	2.3
41.06	2.3
41.17	2.3
41.3	2.3
41.42	2.3
41.53	2.3
41.64	2.3
41.74	2.3
41.88	2.3
41.99	2.3
42.1	2.3
42.21	2.3
42.32	2.3
42.46	4.7
42.57	9.1
42.68	9.9
42.79	11.4
42.9	13.7
43.04	15.5
43.15	15.9
43.26	15.9
43.37	16.1
43.48	16.2
43.61	16.3
43.73	16.2
43.83	16.3
43.94	16.4
44.05	16.5
44.19	16.5
44.31	16.5
44.41	16.3
44.52	16.3
44.63	16.3
44.77	16.4
44.88	16.4
44.99	16.5
45.1	16.5
45.22	16.5
45.37	16.5
45.47	16.7
45.58	16.7
45.69	16.7
45.8	16.7
45.94	16.7
46.05	16.7
46.16	16.7
46.27	16.7
46.38	16.7
46.51	16.7
46.61	16.8
46.72	16.8
46.83	16.7
46.94	16.7
47.08	16.7
47.19	16.7
47.3	16.7
47.41	16.7
47.52	16.7
47.65	16.7
47.77	16.7
47.88	16.6
47.98	16.6
48.09	16.7
48.23	16.8
48.34	16.8
48.46	16.8
48.56	16.8
48.67	16.8
48.81	16.8
48.92	16.7
49.03	16.5
49.15	16.4
49.26	16.2
49.4	16.2
49.51	16.1
49.62	16.1
49.73	16.1
49.84	16.1
49.98	16.1
50.09	16
50.2	16
50.31	16
50.42	16
50.55	16.4
50.65	16.4
50.76	16.5
50.87	16.5
50.98	16.5
51.12	16.6
51.23	16.6
51.34	16.7
51.45	16.7
51.56	16.5
51.69	16.2
51.81	16.1
51.92	16.1
52.02	16
52.13	16
52.28	15.8
52.38	15.8
52.49	15.8
52.6	15.8
52.71	15.9
52.85	15.9
52.96	16
53.07	16
53.18	16.1
53.29	16
53.43	16
53.54	16
53.65	16
53.76	16
53.87	16
54	16.1
54.12	16.1
54.22	16
54.33	16
54.45	16
54.58	16.1
54.7	16.1
54.8	16.1
54.91	16
55.02	16
55.16	16
55.27	16
55.38	16
55.49	16
55.6	16
55.73	16
55.83	16
55.94	16
56.05	16
56.16	16
56.3	16
56.41	15.8
56.52	15.6
56.63	15.5
56.74	15.4
56.87	15.4
56.99	15.4
57.1	15.3
57.21	15.2
57.33	15.2
57.47	15.1
57.58	15.1
57.69	15.4
57.8	16.1
57.91	16.3
58.04	16.2
58.16	16.1
58.27	16.5
58.37	16.5
58.48	16.5
58.62	16.5
58.73	16.4
58.84	16.4
58.95	16.3
59.06	16.3
59.21	16.2
59.33	16.2
59.44	16.1
59.54	15.8
59.65	15.7
59.79	15.8
59.91	15.8
60.01	15.8
60.12	15.8
60.23	15.8
60.37	15.8
60.48	15.7
60.59	15.6
60.7	15.6
60.81	15.6
60.94	15.7
61.04	15.7
61.15	15.7
61.26	15.6
61.37	15.6
61.51	15.6
61.62	15.8
61.73	15.8
61.84	15.8
61.95	15.7
62.08	15.8
62.2	15.9
62.32	15.9
62.43	15.9
62.54	15.9
62.68	16
62.79	16
62.9	16
63.01	16
63.12	16
63.25	16
63.37	16
63.48	16
63.59	15.9
63.69	15.9
63.83	15.7
63.94	15.7
64.06	15.8
64.16	15.6
64.27	15.5
64.41	15.5
64.52	15.4
64.63	15.4
64.74	15.4
64.85	15.4
64.98	15.5
65.08	15.5
65.19	15.5
65.3	15.6
65.41	15.6
65.55	15.6
65.66	15.7
65.77	15.2
65.88	14.5
65.99	12.9
66.12	10.1
66.24	7.6
66.35	2.3
66.46	2.3
66.56	2.3
66.7	2.3
66.81	2.3
66.93	2.3
67.03	2.3
67.16	2.3
67.3	2.3
67.41	2.3
67.52	2.3
67.63	2.3
67.73	2.3
67.87	2.3

As an aside - initially it was climbing every hill I pointed it at in gear "D2" with revs staying at IDLE and foot off accelerator, never down changing. Then I remember the APR stage 1 tune was active. Disabled the tune and it drops back from "D2" to "D1" on anything more than a slight slope even with a touch of throttle. Go APR....

[soogs]

Yes, its a time delay.

"If the selector lever is set to the "N" position for longer than 2 sec., the control unit supplies the solenoid with current. As a result of this, the locking pin is pressed into the locking pin latch "N" . The selector can no longer be unintentionally moved into a gear. The locking pin is released when the brake is activated."

That's interesting, learn something new everyday. Wonder what the reason for is.

So if you are stationary for more than 2 secs in N, say red lights, then you cannot engage D unless you press the brake? Cos in auto cars, occassionally, I shift the gears to N at red lights to give my foot a rest. Sounds like that's not possible in a DSG

[gerhard]

That's interesting, learn something new everyday. Wonder what the reason for is.

So if you are stationary for more than 2 secs in N, say red lights, then you cannot engage D unless you press the brake? Cos in auto cars, occassionally, I shift the gears to N at red lights to give my foot a rest. Sounds like that's not possible in a DSG

It's to prevent stupid Americans having another reason for a recall program.

It's not a torque converter auto car, and does not behave the way they do.

I don't understand which foot gets a rest when you put a TC auto into neutral at the lights. If it's not dead flat the car will roll and you will have to rest your foot on the brake, same as in any manual car. I can't say that I've ever needed to rest my foot in a TC auto car, you must have a very poor foot strength

I don't put my DSG into neutral at the lights, it's designed to not need that.

The safety switch is there to prevent the car being put into drive when there is no driver present, such as when you are running the engine in a driveway or service centre, taking diagnostics, or just getting out to open or close a gate or garage door. If your passenger or a child or a dog were to snick it into D or R it would take off, wouldn't it?.

[cktsi]

Here is a high sample rate log of what the K2 clutch does when crawling up a hill in 2nd gear.

From your earlier spreadsheets looks like the clutch is slipping the way a manual clutch would be ridden on friction point cos I think the values when fully engaged were in the 17's, but a lot of the time in "D2" it's in the 15's.

I'm no mechanic, so I'll ask what may appear to be a dumb question. Is it creeping in 2nd rather than 1st because clutch plate wear is lesser in 2nd gear? It's just i've noticed in a manual if I have really worn clutch plates, the majority of slippage happens in 1st, but not present / noticeable in higher gears (well, at least until the wear becomes chronic).

May not be an informed conclusion from the observation.

[logger]

That's interesting, learn something new everyday. Wonder what the reason for is.

So if you are stationary for more than 2 secs in N, say red lights, then you cannot engage D unless you press the brake? Cos in auto cars, occassionally, I shift the gears to N at red lights to give my foot a rest. Sounds like that's not possible in a DSG

Like Gerhard says the reason is to prevent inadvertent selection and not to prevent damage to the gearbox, which was the other candidate. But play with it a bit and you will see it is easy enough to defeat. It only needs the lightest brake pedal pressure to unlock. So you could still sit @ the lights in "N", lick the brake pedal, select "D" & off you go. You could also just sit stationary in "N", resting your foot, & acquire RSI in your arm by shuffling between "D" & "N" every 1.5sec and it will not lock I tend to leave it in "D" though.

[soogs]

Thanks logger. Can't try it yet, haven't got mine yet, hopefully early next year, hence all the dumb questions, as it looks like the DSG behaves differently from both auto and manual.

Gerhard's explanation partly explains the inadvertent selection of D when no driver's present, but most people will engage the hand brake if car in neutral and you have to leave the car.

[cme2c]

From your earlier spreadsheets looks like the clutch is slipping the way a manual clutch would be ridden on friction point cos I think the values when fully engaged were in the 17's, but a lot of the time in "D2" it's in the 15's.

I'm no mechanic, so I'll ask what may appear to be a dumb question. Is it creeping in 2nd rather than 1st because clutch plate wear is lesser in 2nd gear? It's just i've noticed in a manual if I have really worn clutch plates, the majority of slippage happens in 1st, but not present / noticeable in higher gears (well, at least until the wear becomes chronic).

May not be an informed conclusion from the observation.

Your observation is interesting. I have found the reverse, that is, more slip in higher gears. I also find interesting just how much the clutches are slipping in the 7sp DSG and wonder how long they will last, compared to wet cluches in the 6sp.

Being an old motorcyclist and having to remove and replace wet clutches in the dim, dark past, I appreciate the larger friction area and lower friction. I also appreciate the amount of clutch material floating around the gearbox etc.

So the dry clutch may not last as long, but the gearbocx internals have an easier time. I wonder if there are any high milage dry clutch DSGs out there.