DSG and 350nm Torque Limit ?

[Guy_H]

The "torque manager" in the last two Bosch ME versions is a pretty complex little thing. Its maps intertwine with dozens of other maps in the ECU & not many calibrators have a grasp of it.

Certainly on a car without a big turbocharger, a DSG flash that holds the RPM longer is actually a detriment to performance (takes the turbo way past it's efficiency curve, and drops it up a gear way off its spool incline) - as most people would know, on a K03 or K04 car, the quickest way is to short shift well before redline & keep the turbo on top of the curve.

If you have a big turbo that is still making good boost & power beyond 7000 rpm, then of course a higher rev limit can be an advantage.

No problems with a higher torque levels, and we now have 5 years experience with flashing & installing bigger turbo's on DSG equipped cars for more than 5 years now!

[Tim]

The "torque manager" in the last two Bosch ME versions is a pretty complex little thing. Its maps intertwine with dozens of other maps in the ECU & not many calibrators have a grasp of it.

Who dont you think has a grasp of it? HPA only modify the DSG and not the cars ECU. Are you saying they dont have a good grasp of it because of that? They are pretty much the market leaders when it comes to DSG modifications.

It wasnt long ago when you were implying torque limiting on a dsg is a myth.

[Guy_H]

Not implying anything Tim - Fact is HPA do make great DSG modifications, primarily coming from the need to put big turbo's on 6 cylinder cars & make big horsepower very effectively - they have an excellent product.

Other fact is we have seen software (engine software - not gearbox software) where the "Torque Manager" is not successfully modified in the DSG cars, resulting in misfires at load shift points.

I think you need to read my post again.

This is a quote from the US APR website:

"NOTE Do not be fooled by claims from lesser tuners, a DSG reflash IS NOT Required to achieve the advertised power claims with an APR ECU Upgrade."

You are welcome to your opinion though

[Tim]

My comprehension skills are just fine.

My opinion is that we should be able to carry out an intelligent conversation without posting derogatory/negative comments about "lesser tuners" or other calibrators not having a "grasp" of things. Youre only going to get peoples backs up and come across in a poor light.

Im merely trying to point out that explaining the merrits of your own product does not necessitate saying that others are rubbish. Afterall we are here to discuss or help the original poster with his question and not to sell product right?

So basically in answer to the original question. You do not need to remove the DSG torque limitation via a DSG flash on APR tuned cars because they address that when they recalibrate the ECU (if the application requires it im assuming) Did I get that right?

Answering questions without dancing around the topic is so much easier.

[REXman]

I might be pricing myself out of a discount on a tune here Guy, but since we are giving it to you, , I think shifting well before redline is definitely not the quickest way to a given speed - unless your trying to slow down. I understand the concept of the torque curve, but engine speed and shift point has a lot to do with acceleration, and what you say might be true on a 22B wrx or a rally car where it's all torque in the mid range and it's all corners.. But not the case in a straight line.

Ps that website has a kit for the R where it let's you hold gears like the GTI!!! That with a tune could be alright.

[Guy_H]

As quoted in my previous post: (This is a quote from the US APR web site - not me)

"NOTE Do not be fooled by claims from lesser tuners, a DSG reflash IS NOT Required to achieve the advertised power claims with an APR ECU Upgrade."

This was on topic & I believe, and I believe I contributed to the information in this topic. I don't think I have mentioned any other companies names what so ever.

To clarify what I said previously:

On a car with a K03 / K04 & DSG - I think you will find that a raised rev limiter will be detrimental to acceleration, and also we don't require any alterations to the mythical "torque limiter" to deliver our advertised torque to the wheels of your DSG equipped car.

Now, can you please show me some examples (like before & after dyno's) where a modified GTI has been able to deliver more or less torque to the wheels - with & without a DSG flash? I would love to see one!

[REXman]

Hey check out this link if your an R owner!!

DSG (S-Tronic) Phase 1 Software Upgrade - JBS

[Corey_R]

I might be pricing myself out of a discount on a tune here Guy, but since we are giving it to you, , I think shifting well before redline is definitely not the quickest way to a given speed - unless your trying to slow down. I understand the concept of the torque curve, but engine speed and shift point has a lot to do with acceleration, and what you say might be true on a 22B wrx or a rally car where it's all torque in the mid range and it's all corners.. But not the case in a straight line.

My Polo GTI starts running out of lungs around 5,000 rpm, well before the Redline. Whilst you can rev out to the redline and beyond, it's quicker to change down where the turbo is in its operating range better. The Polo GTI has a K03 turbo, as does the MKV/6 Golf GTI. Although it has been a while since I've had my Stage II MKV GTI, I seem to remember it too being more beneficial to change before the redline than at. Also, the Dyno graphs for both the MK6 GTI Stage 1 and MK6 GTI Stage II with TBE and CAI also show that the HP is already dropping off by 5,500rpm and the NM has long been dropping off. So I would question the benefit of raising the redline via a DSG tune.

The Golf R may be a different story, as it has a K04 turbo which operates at higher RPMs. Its Stage I graph shows that the power has flattened out by 6500 and torque is dropping off quite a lot, so maybe some more RPMs would be useful, maybe not.

One of the things that the DSG tune does have which interests me is the disabling of the kickdown and autochange up in manual mode. That would be an attractive option.

Also, if a DSG tune could swap the up and downshift direction of the stick in manual without requiring my to open the unit up and swap any electrical contacts, then that'd also be welcomed!

[Tim]

its a lot more complex than just looking at dyno plots.

Torque, power and boost can vary in each gear. Its something you can only really evaluate by the seat of your pants I reckon.

[Corey_R]

Very true... hence the "maybes" in relation to the R.
Stock, Stage I and Stage II GTI's I personally think from my experience as an owner it'd be a waste of money

Stage III GTI's and Golf R's, maybe?! I'd love to see some actual data on the topic